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#15 by GASlick on 28 Aug, 2010 10:36
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New Orleans was not flooded because of a hurricane, it was flooded because of the largest engineering failure in the history of the country.
I was going to say that. From everything I saw, the city weathered the actual hurricane pretty well. It was the day after that things went downhill fast with the failure of the levees. -
#16 by Kojak on 28 Aug, 2010 10:40
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It was an Epic fail all the way around. Decades of corrupt local government officials funneling Federal money that was designated for the upkeep of the levees into their own pockets and programs didn't help either.
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#17 by D.A.L.U.I. on 28 Aug, 2010 11:26
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It is still curious to me why or who decided to build a city below sea level. Very strange I think.
The City didn't expand into the lower lying areas until 1876 when Baldwin Wood a local engineer designed what are called the Wood pumps, extremely powerful and efficient pumps. In fact the design was also used in the Netherlands, where a significant portion of the country is below sea level. The problem is that the levees were supposed to withstand a 100 year storm and failed. Currently the City and State are urging the adoption of a 500 year standard. New Orleans is not the only port city to be partially below sea level. It's common. And since it is otherwise surrounded by water it was the only means available to expand.
But the problem was further complicated by the fact that the levees weren't properly designed either. In the lower 9th ward and elsewhere, as the water overtopped the levees, it poured down the outside of the levee and scoured out the foundation that wasn't properly armored, and when that overflowing water scoured out enough of the base, the levee footing explosively gave way. Those footings are now being armored. At the 17th Street canal, not only was the sheet piling not driven to refusal at the location of the breach because it was stopped by an ancient cypress stump and bayou, but since it was built the interior of the canal was dug deeper than originally designed to accommodate more water when additional drainage canals were added. That dig permitted the water pressure to go under the weak section and wash it out.
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#18 by Magoo on 28 Aug, 2010 12:27
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Thanks , Saint for your well informed narrative on the history and legality of New Orleans problems, during and after the storm.
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#19 by reb123161 on 28 Aug, 2010 15:13
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Horrible time, indeed. I was spared as a person due to being in the hospital, working, for 5 days and nights.....my home, on the other hand, was not so fortunate. Funny how a week can seem like a big BLUR!....all days run together. There are still many homes not rebuilt due to "insurance" problems.....AND almost 800,00,000 bucks still sitting in the Katrina fund. Wonder who is using that---and for what. Sorry for my rant, but I suppose I am a bit presuaded on the side I have chosen in this matter-----and Kojack---I know you are sick of them!!! We all are.
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#20 by Mikekoz13 on 28 Aug, 2010 16:34
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I have to correct the impression about the school buses. They were owned by a private company and the company wouldn't use them to evacuate because they had liability concerns. Other problems like that were the refusal of Amtrak to use the trains that were in the City for essentially the same reason.
This is a snapshot of what is wrong with America today. The whole damn country is run by lawyers so most people are afraid to do the "right thing". It's time for peolple to say "F" it and do the right thing.... for God's sake.... help your neighbors, strangers, and anyone else in dire need.
Someoone should have said.... "Damn the liability! Send those buses in and get those people out!"
Balls.... that's what this Country needs right now.... people with a lot of Balls............. -
#21 by Razor X on 28 Aug, 2010 17:40
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This is a snapshot of what is wrong with America today. The whole damn country is run by lawyers so most people are afraid to do the "right thing". It's time for peolple to say "F" it and do the right thing.... for God's sake.... help your neighbors, strangers, and anyone else in dire need.
Someoone should have said.... "Damn the liability! Send those buses in and get those people out!"
Balls.... that's what this Country needs right now.... people with a lot of Balls.............
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#22 by reb123161 on 28 Aug, 2010 19:00
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AMEN, Koz....AMEN!
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#23 by Magoo on 29 Aug, 2010 12:38
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Sounds about right with me! Go Koz !!
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#24 by BaldWriterBob on 31 Aug, 2010 17:19
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It's the thing to do.
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#25 by D.A.L.U.I. on 31 Aug, 2010 19:04
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Perhaps I'll be called defensive, that may be, but I am a lawyer, I was a member of the City of New Orleans' legal staff before and after Katrina, and I have to say that it's a much more complicated process than just putting people on buses--whoever owns or controls them, a whole lot more complicated. The company parked the buses and it was at that time the right decision. The planning for the use of buses in evacuation has innumerable details, and if those details don't work people are in a worse situation than not taking the buses. For instance, drivers--need trained drivers. But the company drivers have families, they need to be taken care of too. Fuel, slow buses burning a lot of fuel, you have to have depots for assured refilling, also school buses don't have sanitary facilities, so there have to be locations for the people to relieve themselves. Food and water--the trip to Tuscaloosa for example, ordinarily five hours took 19 hours in the evacuation traffic--the evacuees need to eat, and babies and elderly and the chronically ill have other necessities. Remember also, the people needing buses are the poorest residents, they have little if any money for a hotel. Where are the buses supposed to take them, the drivers need to know. And that's just the school buses--for pets the problem is greater because you have to have staff to feed and water the animals, they need rest stops too. Then, school buses aren't built or maintained for general highway use--more issues--many even here aren't air conditioned not to mention flat tire repair--no mechanics out there for changing tires, much less a spare bus to pick up the stranded who would otherwise sit abandoned and exposed at the roadside at the mercy of the oncoming storm. Believe me when I tell you that evacuation is a rubic's cube, or maybe a rubic dodecahedron. And, before you hit the road you need to know who is on which bus and where that bus is going--try putting together a spreadsheet that works in chaos, and responds to everyone. When you play with that many variables it's daunting. Yes the lawyers objected and rightfully so--just putting people on buses, it doesn't work unless there is a lot of back up and preparation. Katrina was the first mandatory evacuation of an American city, there was no plan to do it--and I can't say anyone in New Orleans or elsewhere foresaw the need to plan for it. Remember the incident of the bus leaving Houston during Hurricane Rita, it burned possibly because of inadequate supervision of the passengers. You have to have supervision on each bus, some leadership.I have to correct the impression about the school buses. They were owned by a private company and the company wouldn't use them to evacuate because they had liability concerns. Other problems like that were the refusal of Amtrak to use the trains that were in the City for essentially the same reason.
This is a snapshot of what is wrong with America today. The whole damn country is run by lawyers so most people are afraid to do the "right thing". It's time for peolple to say "F" it and do the right thing.... for God's sake.... help your neighbors, strangers, and anyone else in dire need.
Someoone should have said.... "Damn the liability! Send those buses in and get those people out!"
Balls.... that's what this Country needs right now.... people with a lot of Balls.............
When I decided in 2002 that I could afford to work for the City, I had some ideas on how simple it was going to be to straighten things out--I learned quickly that every solution bought out another 10 problems. Governance, as opposed to politics, is details and coordination on a scale that defies description. If you ever get the chance to do it, work in government can be frustrating beyond belief, but you learn to appreciate small improvements. I hope I made one or two small ones in my five years, I really learned a lot, and I have much more to learn.
Others have said New Orleans wasn't prepared. Not for the largest engineering failure in our nations history, no it wasn't. It was prepared for hurricanes, it had survived countless hurricanes and tropical storms. It's really complex. The City would have had some supplies in an ordinary situation, there would have been supplies and equipment for the National Guard to start imposing order, there would have been medical supplies at local hospitals, at least, and there would have been water, even if a boil order was in place, and natural gas to boil it. But Katrina and the levee failure flooded areas of the City never flooded before taking with it all the supplies, equipment and shutting down the water system and gas systems--totally unprecedented. Add to that the flooding made transportation almost impossible, the radio stations and emergency communications failed because of flooding to their emergency generators, every system necessary for the City and state to function was flooded out. Add to that the unprecedented request by the Feds that the governor surrender authority over the National Guard--frankly in hindsight she should have done it. But the Feds arrived surrounded with political suspicions and the dialogue went downhill fast.
When General Honore finally arrived 4-5 days after the storm, even his troops panicked & pointed loaded guns at people huddling on the only dry land they could find until he countermanded the order and made them get out of their armored vehicles and start loading the sickest into the vehicles that could move them out through the flood. The people whose houses had flooded and weren't trapped and those who could get away from the Dome that was also flooded gathered at the Convention Center near the River so it was on a little dry land--but it wasn't equipped or built to function as a refugee center and it didn't have water or sewers either by the time they got there. They couldn't get helicopters from the federal government because Rumsfeld held them in Florida because they might be needed in the middle east-might, not were. The National Guard was depleted of men and equipment because of deployments to the middle east. The police equipment was flooded out, the transit busses likewise. School buses, they having been parked by the company, flooded out anyway. Some transit busses had been stolen during the storm by people desperate to leave and wound up as far away as Dallas--strange.
As a result of this there have been many new laws and many others amended permitting and encouraging other means of response, but 8/29/05 it wasn't in place. It's not a John Wayne movie, and after the storm, when most of the water was gone and we got back to the Emergency Operation Center--City Hall was flooded, I learned a whole different world was out there. People scattered to the four winds. One elderly friend of the family had serious hip surgery Friday before the storm, she was airlifted out the following Friday after surviving hell at Memorial Hospital to Slidell, and finally wound up in Memphis--she's still alive and kicking. She's quite a lady. Stories abound of personal sacrifice and dedication to duty, but also police and firemen abandoning their posts, over reacting under stress then covering it up when everything calmed down. I had more than five police death claims based on suicide from stress when I was appointed risk manager for the City. And the mayor, a nice guy really, overwhelmed and essentially ruined by a situation that was beyond what he could handle, but I don't know if anyone could have done better. There were people doing work beyond what they thought they could, and others grabbing and thieving with both hands. Selfless contribution and wanton greed lived together in the City's struggle to survive.
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#26 by Mikekoz13 on 31 Aug, 2010 19:40
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Saintc-
I understand all the things that you wrote above............. BUT!................... When people's lives are at stake one must do whatever needs to be done.
That's what made America great... people doing whatever needed to be done. Unfortunately a large part of our society just doesn't get it.
If my Mom was stranded in a similar situation I would Pray that her community would step up. I'll repeat what I posted earlier. It's time for the people with balls to step up.
Be one of those people Gentlemen.............. opportunities will present themselves........... be the guy with the balls to do the right thing. -
#27 by aarrggh on 31 Aug, 2010 20:02
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Saintc-
I understand all the things that you wrote above............. BUT!................... When people's lives are at stake one must do whatever needs to be done.
That's what made America great... people doing whatever needed to be done. Unfortunately a large part of our society just doesn't get it.
If my Mom was stranded in a similar situation I would Pray that her community would step up. I'll repeat what I posted earlier. It's time for the people with balls to step up.
Be one of those people Gentlemen.............. opportunities will present themselves........... be the guy with the balls to do the right thing.
Maybe you should make a run for the White House . ? ! -
#28 by schro on 31 Aug, 2010 20:09
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Saintc-
I understand all the things that you wrote above............. BUT!................... When people's lives are at stake one must do whatever needs to be done.
That's what made America great... people doing whatever needed to be done. Unfortunately a large part of our society just doesn't get it.
If my Mom was stranded in a similar situation I would Pray that her community would step up. I'll repeat what I posted earlier. It's time for the people with balls to step up.
Be one of those people Gentlemen.............. opportunities will present themselves........... be the guy with the balls to do the right thing.
Maybe you should make a run for the White House . ? !
Koz would have my vote. -
#29 by Kojak on 31 Aug, 2010 20:45
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+2Saintc-
I understand all the things that you wrote above............. BUT!................... When people's lives are at stake one must do whatever needs to be done.
That's what made America great... people doing whatever needed to be done. Unfortunately a large part of our society just doesn't get it.
If my Mom was stranded in a similar situation I would Pray that her community would step up. I'll repeat what I posted earlier. It's time for the people with balls to step up.
Be one of those people Gentlemen.............. opportunities will present themselves........... be the guy with the balls to do the right thing.
Maybe you should make a run for the White House . ? !
Koz would have my vote.
I think you would be hard pressed to find a resident of New Orleans that would have done a worse job than Mayor Ray Nagin. The rampage that he went on with his profane dialog was a major embarrassment to the office that he held and the city of New Orleans.