MEN! Prepare for some tough love. - page 1 -

• MEN! Prepare for some tough love. by buddha on 08 Jan, 2010 09:49
• First, a little history. Back in the 90s something called The Men's Movement became somewhat of a household word. People like Robert Bly, Thomas Moore, and Asa Baber(Playboy magazine) were some of the movers and shakers that got things going in public. This whole thing was about men reclaiming their birthright of manhood. Because it became clear to the early leaders that men were no longer "allowed" access to the things that made them "a man among men".
   
  For example, when I was young my mother told me a story about her father, my grandfather. He is a man that, 20 years after his death, I still love and admire. For me he will always be a man among men. When my mother was young, perhaps 10 years old, she and my aunt ran home to tell my grandfather that a man down at the corner candy store tried to get them to go back to his house with them in a way that frightened them both. My grandfather walked down the street with them and they pointed the man out. My grandfather told them to go home and wait for him there. When he returned a little while later he showed signs of having been victorious in battle, bruised knuckles, etc., but assured my mom and her sister that this man would not trouble them again.
  
  My grandfather was always spoken of by his family as an exceedingly kind man and that is my memory of him, as well. But, given the proper circumstances my grandfather would unleash intense ferocity on anyone who threatened anything that he held dear. Even as an old man I knew that my grandfather would do whatever he had to do to keep me safe even if it cost him his life. I was always confident when I was with him.
   
  But this is not about my grandfather. This is about the men's movement that I referred to earlier. People, especially some women, have a skewed opinion of the men's movement and men's retreats. There is a prevailing attitude about a group of men going on a retreat that conjures the notion of a bunch of misguided oafs painting their faces and taking on Indian names and speaking in strange tongues for a weekend. And this notion is conveyed to men as a way of making them feel silly and childish about wanting to be men in the way that it meant to be a man in the days of my grandfather and before.
   
  I have been a participant in men's retreats as well as having been on the staff of one of the groups that facilitates these retreats that operates out of Evanston, IL. For about 5 years as a staff member I was priviledged to see men who knew that they had strayed off the path attend these retreats in an attempt to regain their direction. Some of these men told us of an experience that sounded like having been bullied away from their true calling by their wives, girlfriends, or even their mothers. There is no one that can say that a weekend retreat can totally change a man's life and allow him to lead the life of a warrior, with honor and respect, but I saw many times men who arrived at a retreat a shrunken, beaten man and who left standing straight and vowing to get himself back on his rightful path.
  
  Why all this on a forum for men who shave their heads? Because it goddamn infuriates me to read about men who have been bullied by a rapidly feminizing society into feeling like they have to ask permission from the women in their lives to something so personal as shaving their own head. This is why in another thread in this section I quoted Brad Pitt's character from the movie "Fight Club", specifically the line where he says "we're a generation of men raised by women". Well meaning brothers come into this forum and I read their questions about getting their wives to let them shave or "how do I sell this to the wife?" and I become defensive for these men. I make comments about taking back your balls and when I write this it probably gets read as being a mean-spirited comment. My intention is the opposite. One of the ideas that I took away from my connection with the men's movement is that manhood is bestowed upon the man by right of birth. No one can take it away but a man can surrender it. The nice thing is that whenever he wants to take it back it will only respond to his call. Not that of his wife.
  
  I want to be clear, I am not condemning women. I do not and will never take the side of any man who abuses his wife.
  
  BUT A MAN CLAIMING HIS MANHOOD IS NOT ABUSE!
  
  No matter what anyone says.
  This is why I get so angry when men come in here and explain to the members of this forum that they are trying to figure out how to float this sly thing with the wife or the gf. And my anger sometimes comes out at the man but it is not hateful. Because I have been in this same boat as they are right now and I was content to stay there until I realized that the boat had a hole in it and was taking water and my only hope was rescue. And while I had wise men to show me the way I had to rescue myself to prove that I really wanted it. And it took some fighting and some anger and some tears and some screaming and the only thing I can say for sure about the whole experience is that I am f^@king glad that I was there.
• #1 by warhawk on 08 Jan, 2010 10:13
• hey buddha:  bravo... bravo....   i thoroughly enjoyed that post.  i love the story of your grandfather.  he definitely is a true man.  thanks 4 sharing that story. 
  
  WARHAWK
• #2 by D.A.L.U.I. on 08 Jan, 2010 10:16
• While I agree with many of budda's points on the changes in society, I think that much of the so called "feminization" of culture is probably related to the influence of co-dependency in our lives.  Whether or not co-dependency is a problem to be solved is controversial but many of the traits that characterize the condition certainly seem to have relevance to a discussion of how decisions are made by men in their relations with the significant other as well as, and in particular, with male pattern baldness.  I think that head shaving is best for me, but for reasons I can't frankly understand, some "legitimately" prefer the balding look .  However, if a guy won't shave his head because he has the following traits, it's probably feminization or co-dependency.
  
  I found these signs of co-dependency in Wikipedia & I suggest that they may be characterized as part of the feminization phenom:
  
  A balding guy may resist shaving if he has the following feelings (note: these aren't all the co-dependency patterns in the syndrome.)
  
  Denial Patterns:
  
      * I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
      * I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
      * I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others.
  
  Low Self Esteem Patterns:
  
      * I have difficulty making decisions.
      * I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
      * I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
      * I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
      * I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
      * I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.
  
  Compliance Patterns:
  
      * I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
      * I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
      * I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
      * I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
      * I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
    
  
  If a balding guy has these behavior pattern, he may be seen as submitting to the feminization of society if it prevents him from shaving his head in response to mpb or causes him to resist any thoughts of growing a beard.  From my point of view these aren't healthy patterns in any relationship, particularly with women, because they cause a guy to be in effect a possession of the woman and not a partner.  To that extent surely it feminizes that guy.
  But it's just my opinion.
  
  
• #3 by buddha on 08 Jan, 2010 10:27
• Another thing that I would add to the list of compliance patterns given by saintc is:
  It's not worth arguing about.
• #4 by D.A.L.U.I. on 08 Jan, 2010 10:31
• I agree, "It's not worth arguing about" would clearly be a Compliance pattern i
• #5 by ozzie on 08 Jan, 2010 10:32
• @buddha  
• #6 by BaldRob on 08 Jan, 2010 12:27
• Absolutely spot on Buddha!
• #7 by Mikekoz13 on 08 Jan, 2010 13:50
• Man Buddha.... what an outstanding post!
  
  I have never been a member of the men's movement because I am an old fashioned type guy in many ways. I look at my wife, and women in general, as my equal in many respects. But I am no fool and I know that there are some things that my wife is just not physically capable of. I, like your Grandfather, would take matters into my own hands if any of my Family were threatened in any way.
  
  I recently had a talk with my wife's very old Uncle about having a "talk" with his piece of sh*t son-in-law. The son -in-law had mentally abused the Uncle's daughter to the point of attempted suicide. This "talk" would have basically been non-verbal and very physical.
  Though he didn't accept my offer, he shook my hand, hugged me, and thanked me for being a "real" man.
  
  I come from a long line of very tough, no bullshit, Polish men. I vowed many years ago to carry that torch proudly and pass the lessons on to my boys.
  Does this mean I'm not compassionate and kind? Hell no..... part of being that real man is knowing when compassion MUST rule the day.
  
  I call the whole thing "The Pussification of America"............. and it is led by the "Nintendo Generation"........
• #8 by Rob on 08 Jan, 2010 14:24
• Great post Buddha
• #9 by buddha on 09 Jan, 2010 08:17
• Thanks for your support, boys. Much appreciated.
  
  I think part of what may have happened in my original post is that I lost sight of my original intent which was to buffer my comments to men who come to this forum looking for a way to sneak going sly past the women in their lives. The point is that a man doesn't need to ask permission for something like this and trying to "sell it" or do it in a way that will save them having to explain themselves turns out to be the doorway to continued problems in the future.
  
  Something like this is much akin to women changing their hair color or getting a perm. Maybe the man in her life doesn't like the idea but, simply put, women's stand is "it's not his hair". In that they are absolutely correct. So parity or equality is what's at stake here and a lot of women who are not sly fans will read this thread and reactby conveying the idea that men worrying about this shows just how immature men can be.
  
  I do not advocate a man just taking action on all things without discussion or input from a significant other in a case where his conduct would have an effect on others. An example of this would be a man who might withdraw $10K from the family bank account and going to Vegas for a week with friends knowing that his conduct will affect his family's ability to pay their mortgage. Clearly discussion is called for in this case.
  
  So when I write that a man should just reach up and take that jar where his wife, etc keeps his balls and take them back I am, in effect, cheering for equality for men in all things. Because this practice of asking permission for something so personal is merely a link in the chain of men not being equal to women but being subservient to them.
• #10 by RyanJP on 09 Jan, 2010 22:12
• Nice post 
• #11 by bubbadave3 on 10 Jan, 2010 23:21
• I'm gonna go out on a limb here.  Ya know what I hate about American society?  Men are so afraid of being misunderstood that they're afraid to show non-sexual affection to other guys.  I grew up in a Middle Eastern culture (in this country).  The guys weren't afraid to hold hands or even kiss each other on the cheeks.  I miss that SO much, but don't want to be misunderstood.  Plus, guys aren't supposed to show any emotions, either. 
• #12 by D.A.L.U.I. on 11 Jan, 2010 07:42
• Bubbadave3 I know exactly what you're talking about.  For a large portion of my career I worked for Kuwaiti's and my boss was Syrian.  He was absolutely the smartest, best negotiator I have ever worked with.  Over the years we became close, and I learned that the physical expression of  friendship in the Middle Eastern fashion is a great tradition.
  I'm not sure that the Puritan based American culture is amenable to it.  The French and Italians are closer. 
• #13 by GASlick on 11 Jan, 2010 12:19
• Cultures are very different.  I have several close guy friends that when we see each other we give each other hugs.
  
  My dad was never very good at showing emotion.  He's in his early 60's now and I've seen him show more emotion the last 5 years than in my entire life.  Must be age or something.
  
  I'm very good at keeping my emotions in check; however, there are times that one simply must cry.  Pure and simple.  Oddly enough for me it's not the expected times.  For example, I didn't cry when my children were born.  I rarely cry at funerals and never have at a wedding.  I cried Christmas morning when my mom called to tell me Merry Christmas.  It's the little things I guess.
  
  
• #14 by D.A.L.U.I. on 11 Jan, 2010 12:45
• Quote from: GAslick on 11 Jan, 2010 12:19

  Cultures are very different. 
  
  

  
  Tell me about it.  Moving to the South was a real trip, all the kissing between men & women, & women and women at social occasions--even when they really might not care for each other .  And the "are you related to" beginning to seemingly every conversation, and the number of times the people wind up being related, even if only by a great granduncle or aunt.  I really find it amusing now, in fact I have to "buffer" the people in the company from up in upstate NY, they just want to start talking business from the minute they walk in!