Sly Bald Guys Forum
Various Non-Bald Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: Deb_T on June 03, 2008, 10:01:10 AM
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Hello all. Hope you remember me.
Just wondered what you intelligent guys thought about the way that the State (in my view) is watching citizens more and more closely. Is this a good thing?
My boyfriend in the Army no doubt supports the view that, for a secure society, we need a degree of surveillance. Even a high degree.
But, burgeoning cameras, surveillance, databases... Some of us are a little more dubious about the way things could be heading. Are we all presumed potential suspects? Things have changed a lot.
It's a massively complex subject, of course. But I wondered what you guys thought. You have had a lot interesting things to say in the past.
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I think like anything else these abilities can be used for good and bad.
When it comes to general surveillance of public areas, more stringent rules for forginers entering the US, and keeping a general finger on the pulse of US scociety, I am all for it.
When it comes to giving up personal freedoms for exceptions and not the rule, I find it hard to believe that there is not a unsavory ideal that is pushing that forward.
To sum it up, in public places I think it is smart and should be expected. When the government has the ability to spy on its own citizens in private and snoop into their personal lives, that is what our government was set up to protect us against.
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Let's just say that, the way things are headed, I would not be surprised if things take a turn for the worse very very soon....I'm glad you're starting to see the slow change that is happening all around us as well. I have definitely been aware of it for some time now.
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I think like anything else these abilities can be used for good and bad.
When it comes to general surveillance of public areas, more stringent rules for forginers entering the US, and keeping a general finger on the pulse of US scociety, I am all for it.
Public places could be used to ultimately peer into our private lives. Take roads for example, at least in Montana, landowners own to the centerline of the easement, if allowed to have surveillance on a road, that could ultimately lead to a precedent that could allow surveillance of private property. And you can only claim title to that which you can control, so not being able to control the airspace 500 feet above the land to which you have title, would then place the air at 501 feet in the public domain, 500 feet isn't very far.
It is a very touchy area and with the power that the government has already, it isn't hard to fathom that privacy could see a virtual end.
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It just worries me because of no more walking out to my mailbox to get my mail or newspaper in my bday suit....but oh well....I guess its time to grow up.
Seriously though, it is rather scary to think where this world is heading. I am venturing to say we have maybe become full circle. If oil prices keep going up and prices of everything else along with it other than our wages....you are going to see less activity around us all. We have already seen a decline in automobile traffice just in our little town of Washington. Only time you really see alot of vehicles on the road is around 8 am , noon and 5pm. Going to work, lunch and home. Someone asked me the other day why I only have been putting about $15 worth of gas in my truck. I told them well I could sit here and fill it up...but...if I did that, I would always figure I had a full tank and yeah..I can run do that, OH OK, I will run there....do this do that. With not much gas in truck...less liable to go here and there. I usually just say I will do this this and that while im out.
Sorry, this kinda ran off subject...
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The slow erosion or taking away the rights of the citizens was tried once before and isn't this where it ended up.....
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The slow erosion or taking away the rights of the citizens was tried once before and isn't this where it ended up.....
Tom, Tom, Tom I can't believe you posted the swastika :Xo!
Hopefully Juggler won't be seeing it. He'd have a coronary.
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Just proving a point. (I wonder whatever happened to him)
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Yup, I agree with Tom.
Unfortunately, after Obama gets in office we'll all understand much more clearly what it actually means to lose our rights! :(
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Interesting results so far in the poll.
Positive results IMO.
I think wariness and vigilance in monitoring the government/state; it's evolving policy and stance is crucial to maintaining civil freedoms and basic human rights. Freedom and democracy requires an effort; the populace can't just assume the government in power is honest and forthright in ANY nation-state. The USA is no exception.
Totalitarian states have no prescribed political affiliation or occupy any particular part of the political spectrum; as the Soviets and the Nazi's proved.
Although the Nazi flag is a bit extreme here.... it vividly makes the point.
"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."
--George Santayana
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Unfortunately, after Obama gets in office we'll all understand much more clearly what it actually means to lose our rights! :(
Anywhere else, I'd expect to hear that that sentence, except with the name "Obama" replaced by the word "McCain". So now, you've made me hella curious as to why exactly you think that....Hella curious....
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I have no doubt this thread will be pulled in a matter of hours now. Anything even remotely political or controversial is removed to the moderator thread.
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I have no doubt this thread will be pulled in a matter of hours now. Anything even remotely political or controversial is removed to the moderator thread.
Hmmm...Why is that? As responsible, sensible, logical and (hopefully) respectful adults, why can't we hear each others views in the most unequivocal words possible?
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I have no doubt this thread will be pulled in a matter of hours now. Anything even remotely political or controversial is removed to the moderator thread.
Hmmm...Why is that? As responsible, sensible, logical and (hopefully) respectful adults, why can't we hear each others views in the most unequivocal words possible?
Krypton I totally agree with you bro and have stated as such in the past.Not my doing.I've just found this is what seems to happen when any topic turns political or religious.
I'd love to discuss politics and religion on this board.
I dont mind the CCTV cameras that they have put in some of the trouble spots in downtown here in Sydney. There have been hundreds of assaults and bashings where they have been able to catch the culprits and punish them from the footage captured. This has in turn made these areas safer.
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I have no doubt this thread will be pulled in a matter of hours now. Anything even remotely political or controversial is removed to the moderator thread.
Hmmm...Why is that? As responsible, sensible, logical and (hopefully) respectful adults, why can't we hear each others views in the most unequivocal words possible?
Krypton I totally agree with you bro and have stated as such in the past.Not my doing.I've just found this is what seems to happen when any topic turns political or religious.
I'd love to discuss politics and religion on this board.
Got ya.....
Well yea, what this country is coming to is definitely starting to scare me. Ordinary cameras these days can be backed by extraordinary computer algorithms that track how you walk, your bodily mannerisms, capture and catalog unique regions of your face, and identify you simply based on these characteristics. Software their coming out with is ridiculous. The other day on Digg, I found an article where they have basically designed software that, given an MRI of your brain, can deduce exactly what you are thinking (but for now, it only knows what images for 60 english words correspond to....For now.....)
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FBI's Net surveillance proposal raises privacy, legal concerns
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9929085-38.html
Transcript: FBI director on surveillance of 'illegal' Internet activity
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9927552-38.html
FBI turns to broad new wiretap method
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6154457.html
Revealed: FBI Internet Surveillance More Extensive Than Previously Known
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/1/31/revealed_fbi_internet_surveillance_more_extensive
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I have no doubt this thread will be pulled in a matter of hours now. Anything even remotely political or controversial is removed to the moderator thread.
It seems that people sometimes become overly sensitive about remarks made about political figures. It is as though the remarks are being made about a friend or family member and people can get downright defensive. I put a post in the jokes section about the (now) loser in the democratic primary that started all kinds of strife. I ended up amending it to make the subject of the joke P. Hilton. So imagine what kinds of muck this thread will rake up. I agree with the illustrious Son Of Krypton that we should be able to voice views about things like this in the forum but since I don't run the show it's not my decision. But imagine if a big story broke on this forum that suddenly got this country headed down a different path that proved to be better than the one we're on. We would all be part of that. And it is said that, with regard to freedom of speech, that the most important speech to protect is the one that the listener finds most objectionable.
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There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.
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Yup, I agree with Tom.
Unfortunately, after Obama gets in office we'll all understand much more clearly what it actually means to lose our rights! :(
http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/McCain_I_d_Spy_on_Americans_Secretly_Too
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There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.
A populace uninformed is a populace enslaved. I would rather risk starting a "fight" with my fellow good man by informing him as much as I can and letting him inform me of his views as much as he can instead of wussing out for fear of the situations outcome lending credence to some age old saying. The words "never", "always", and "all" (amongst others) are usually parts of phrases that turn out to be utter bullshit. I'm not about to believe them because I am told to believe them.
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^^32
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There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.
A populace uninformed is a populace enslaved. I would rather risk starting a "fight" with my fellow good man by informing him as much as I can and letting him inform me of his views as much as he can instead of wussing out for fear of the situations outcome lending credence to some age old saying. The words "never", "always", and "all" (amongst others) are usually parts of phrases that turn out to be utter bullsh*t. I'm not about to believe them because I am told to believe them.
The little kernel that hides in there is that you are never going to change anybodies mind and all you start is a fight.
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There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.
A populace uninformed is a populace enslaved. I would rather risk starting a "fight" with my fellow good man by informing him as much as I can and letting him inform me of his views as much as he can instead of wussing out for fear of the situations outcome lending credence to some age old saying. The words "never", "always", and "all" (amongst others) are usually parts of phrases that turn out to be utter bullsh*t. I'm not about to believe them because I am told to believe them.
Speaking of bullshit.
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There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.
A populace uninformed is a populace enslaved. I would rather risk starting a "fight" with my fellow good man by informing him as much as I can and letting him inform me of his views as much as he can instead of wussing out for fear of the situations outcome lending credence to some age old saying. The words "never", "always", and "all" (amongst others) are usually parts of phrases that turn out to be utter bullsh*t. I'm not about to believe them because I am told to believe them.
Speaking of bullsh*t.
Awww.....That's so cute!
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Yeah, ain't it.... :*))
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as far a political campaigns, candidates (as they always have) will say what needs to be said in order to secure the office. This is a well crafted art that has alot of intelligent people and a ton of money involved to ensure a positive outcome and acceptance of the candidate by the majority.
After the election the same thing happens just to a different crowd and the promises kept are those that have secured an action through contributions.
You never know what an elected official will do, at best you can formulate a hypothesis of the candidates character.
Ok, enough of that...
As for surveillance, the government should have the same rights as the media and should not enter the realm of a citizens privacy (i.e. Phone calls, emails, mail, ect.) without probable cause. The patriot act has changed this though...
Why would we need the patriot act if pre 9/11 intelligence was ignored anyway? It seems it is not a lack of information that is the issue, it is the overwhelming amount of information to weed through that tends to cause (or fail to prevent) problems these days.
Call me crazy but when it comes to intelligence, gathering seems to be the reason join the FBI or CIA. Nobody wants to be the guy reading through cell phone transcripts and checking surveilence video from a mall in Dubuque.
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The concept of the Patriot Act is not new. During the 1st World War, Americans were targeted based on surnames and accents. We all know of the shameful treatment of Japanese-Americans during World War 2 (based on phenotypes - and yet there was no evidence of any sabotage by them). What is happening today with Americans of Middle Eastern ancestry is no exception - or variance from history. These things will continue to happen as long as we have an enemy, be they real or perceived. It is, I am afraid, human nature. The sins of the few are paid for by the majority of the populace.
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Prolly shouldn't have opened that can but for the record, I don't think very highly of either candidate. :-X
I think that peoples fears will cause them to surrender rights for security and they will not ever get those rights back. They will likely not get the security they had hoped for either. It has always happened that way in history.
Surveillance seems to be gaining acceptance as people are conditioned to tolerate it. I think it's inevitable that we will see much more of it in the future. But then, I read the last chapter so I know the ending of the story! :*))
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I think that peoples fears will cause them to surrender rights for security and they will not ever get those rights back. They will likely not get the security they had hoped for either. It has always happened that way in history.
"Those who are willing to sacrifice their basic liberties to assure their security deserve neither." - Ben Franklin
Couldn't agree with ya more Pate.
How's that for an old ass quote whose intrinsic veracity is wholly assumed, Tom?
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"Perhaps people who are sick, afraid, demoralized and in debt are far easier to govern than a healthy, perky, sassy populace"
. -quote from Sicko.
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I have no doubt this thread will be pulled in a matter of hours now. Anything even remotely political or controversial is removed to the moderator thread.
The reason that we pull politicial/controversial/religious/etc posts is twofold:
1. It is clearly against the posting guidelines under point 14 http://www.slybaldguys.com/smf/index.php?topic=723.0 (http://www.slybaldguys.com/smf/index.php?topic=723.0)
2. As a whole, Sly Bald Guys is a forum about balding and shaving your head and we aim to keep a friendly atmosphere. Political topics or posts are very divisive and can bring down a forum.
Believe it or not, it is not some big Moderator conspiracy... we all have our beliefs and respect the beliefs of others. However, to keep harmony within these hallowed e-walls, we pull posts from time to time.
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I have no doubt this thread will be pulled in a matter of hours now. Anything even remotely political or controversial is removed to the moderator thread.
The reason that we pull politicial/controversial/religious/etc posts is twofold:
1. It is clearly against the posting guidelines under point 14 http://www.slybaldguys.com/smf/index.php?topic=723.0 (http://www.slybaldguys.com/smf/index.php?topic=723.0)
2. As a whole, Sly Bald Guys is a forum about balding and shaving your head and we aim to keep a friendly atmosphere. Political topics or posts are very divisive and can bring down a forum.
Believe it or not, it is not some big Moderator conspiracy... we all have our beliefs and respect the beliefs of others. However, to keep harmony within these hallowed e-walls, we pull posts from time to time.
Eventhough I wasn't really paying attention to the thread, thanks Rob and the admin. for checking in on things...
this is a great place and things can get out of hand..not that they were, but you never know these days!
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So, getting back to bald heads, I wonder if being "sly" would cause you to "stand out" to those conducting the "surveillance"? :o
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I think that peoples fears will cause them to surrender rights for security and they will not ever get those rights back. They will likely not get the security they had hoped for either. It has always happened that way in history.
"Those who are willing to sacrifice their basic liberties to assure their security deserve neither." - Ben Franklin
Couldn't agree with ya more Pate.
How's that for an old ass quote whose intrinsic veracity is wholly assumed, Tom?
Oh that's great. I'm really impressed...LOL
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I think that peoples fears will cause them to surrender rights for security and they will not ever get those rights back. They will likely not get the security they had hoped for either. It has always happened that way in history.
"Those who are willing to sacrifice their basic liberties to assure their security deserve neither." - Ben Franklin
Couldn't agree with ya more Pate.
How's that for an old ass quote whose intrinsic veracity is wholly assumed, Tom?
Oh that's great. I'm really impressed...LOL
Awesome. Just like around hot women, my inherent worth is validated when you are impressed. YES!!!! Man.....That just made my day.
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So, getting back to bald heads, I wonder if being "sly" would cause you to "stand out" to those conducting the "surveillance"? :o
I'll bet you we look more sinister to the camera watchers...So we probably get focused on more than others....Meh.
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So, getting back to bald heads, I wonder if being "sly" would cause you to "stand out" to those conducting the "surveillance"? :o
THAT'S PROFILING!
Quick, I'm calling the ACLU!
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So, getting back to bald heads, I wonder if being "sly" would cause you to "stand out" to those conducting the "surveillance"? :o
THAT'S PROFILING!
Quick, I'm calling the ACLU!
I had a problem similar to that pre-SLY. Used to get followed a lot by mall security. So we made it a game to see if we could lose them and how many it took to keep tabs on us.
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I had a law professor that believed that the 9th amendment to the Constitution was inclusive of the right to privacy in the individual. It's an interesting legal arguement. The 9th amendment reads:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
The 5th prevents invasion for criminal investigation purposes, but the 9th goes further in my old professor's view!
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Wasn't J. Edgar Hoover building files on people back in the 20's and 30's. It probably has been going on forever.
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Wasn't J. Edgar Hoover building files on people back in the 20's and 30's. It probably has been going on forever.
Unfortunately, Tom is probably right. It's just a helluva lot easier now with the new technology.
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Wasn't J. Edgar Hoover building files on people back in the 20's and 30's. It probably has been going on forever.
That, and dressing up like a pretty lady. >:D
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Hard to believe ain't it.
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Well, not much surprises me these days... but I must say witch hunting communists in fishnets and stiletto heels is pushing the limits even by todays standards.
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I think everyone profiles to some degree.
It's kind of ironic, when I was a LEO people didn't believe I was when I wasn't in uniform... after I was no longer a LEO and I went sly, I have been accused of being a cop several times! :o
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You look sorta undercover narc-ish Sarge.
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You look sorta undercover narc-ish Sarge.
I think it's the "bad attitude"! :*))