Bin Laden

[SlyHigh]

A better solution would be to avoid visiting places where it's acceptable to attack people for wearing certain colors.

Sometimes I think the US government should take that advice as well.

[D.A.L.U.I.]

I'm reading The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright, Vintage Books, 2007, that is a detailed examination of Al Qaeda and bin Laden.  It's a very complex history, full of nuance and varying interests, but a real page turner.  This isn't easy reading but very rewarding on the man, the movement and other people and influences.  It doesn't put any soft corners on the hard issues that our country, the world--the West, Middle East etc. face.  I recommend it to all Sly Brothers.

[StumpyDave]

it started in ancient Egypt

I think it started before that.  People have been beating each other up one way or another since the human race developed ways to express an opinion and disagree with each other.  The scale of bigotry and conflict has changed.

we (rightfully) support Israel
[/quote/

Right and wrong are relative terms.  They very much depend on which side of the fence your sitting.  There's a lot of displaced Palestinians that would disagree with the creation of an independent Jewish state in 1948.

Unfortunately it appears that people in large groups are not particularly tolerant of one another and seem to be fairly happy to exploit someone if they get better off as a result (western consumerism supports child labour and exploitation in India and China by buying cheap goods).
The ideal would be for everyone to compromise a little and get on with other, recognising everyone as a fellow human being with basic rights.

[Razor X]

we (rightfully) support Israel

Right and wrong are relative terms.  They very much depend on which side of the fence your sitting.  There's a lot of displaced Palestinians that would disagree with the creation of an independent Jewish state in 1948.

Right in the sense that they are the only stable democracy in the region.

[StumpyDave]

Good to see someone can get quotes to work.

Purely as Devil's Advocate in this instance:
What makes Democracy the right political ideology?
How stable and fair a democracy is Israel (again, ask a displaced Palestinian that isn't allowed to vote)?

Positions of right and wrong also seem to vary.  USA (and Britain) supported Iraq in its war against Iran.

[Argyle]

I have to say that my principles lean more towards Dave's viewpoint.  I personally agree that deomcracy is right, but who am i to say.   I can only say in the balance of probability that democracy is the best way, for all i know the future may dictate otherwise.  It rather reminds me of a debate that I heard on the radio the other night where aetheists in the UK are planning on taking out adverts on the side of buses that say, "God probably doesnt exist, so just enjoy life" or something to that effect.  That elicited all kinds of angry people phoning in saying of course he does etc etc.  But the underlying point was that although people can have complete faith, no one can honestly say that they know beyond all doubt either way and I suppose this is very much the same with right and wrong.  In my view, what is right and what is wrong can only be proved retrospectively. 

On the whole Bin Laden thing though.  I must say that I find everything that man stands for to be utterly abhorrent, however I do think it is all too easy for us to sit here and be critical without looking a little closer to home at some of the horrific acts sanctioned by our respective Governments.  Whilst for instance in Iraq I can kind of see that overturning Saddam may eventually have some benefit to the people of Iraq, I do feel that my support was sought under false pretenses and that as a nation, our leaders have also been responsible for killing thousands on innocent civillians. 

You could also argue for instance that by consistantly avoiding commitment to environment targets that Mr Bush is damaging the entire planet.  I am personally ashamed of some of the decisions taken by my Government over the past few years and will find it difficult to vote in our next General election with any conviction or desire to see anyone take office at all.

[Razor X]

Good to see someone can get quotes to work.

Purely as Devil's Advocate in this instance:
What makes Democracy the right political ideology?

Because it works better than any other system of government.  Also, when was the last time that two democracies went to war with each other?

How stable and fair a democracy is Israel (again, ask a displaced Palestinian that isn't allowed to vote)?

It's more fair and more stable than any other country in the region.  The displaced Palestinians may not be able to vote there, but they aren't able to vote in most, if not all, of the other countries in the Middle East.[/quote]

Positions of right and wrong also seem to vary.  USA (and Britain) supported Iraq in its war against Iran.

That was done in order not to tip the balance of power too much in favor of either nation.  It was the right thing to do at the time.

[Razor X]

I have to say that my principles lean more towards Dave's viewpoint.  I personally agree that deomcracy is right, but who am i to say.   I can only say in the balance of probability that democracy is the best way, for all i know the future may dictate otherwise. 

What other systems of government would you like to live under? 

[StumpyDave]

when was the last time that two democracies went to war with each other?

Um, 1939.
Adolf Hitler was the democratically elected Chancellor of Germany.
I've got to agree that generally a well run democracy would seem to be the fairest and best system for government.  However there are quite a lot of unfair systems around the world that use the name democracy and aren't very democratic.

The displaced Palestinians may not be able to vote there, but they aren't able to vote in most, if not all, of the other countries in the Middle East.

That hardly makes Israel a fair democracy, does it?

I'd love to see a true world wide democracy, where everyone has an equal right to be heard and their best interests represented.  Decisions should then be made based on all information.  Unfortunately this will mean a degree of compromise.  Whilst some people in poorer nations will undoubtedly be much better off, others in rich nations will be worse off.

Whilst human emotions can get involved there is always the chance that any political system can be abused.  If those that actually wield power care for everyone and are truly selfless about it I think any political system can work, be that oligarchy, monarchy or democracy.  The sharing of power between a greater number of people that truly represent the requirements of the public would reduce the tendency for self interest.
There is always a chance that some nutter can get to the top of the pile.  1930's Germany a good example.  In this case the system will fall apart.
Whilst there is any form of inequality in the world there will be uprising of one sort or another.  It may be a democratic uprising against a perceived unjust system (the French revolution?) or it may be a small group targeting another group or individual for their own cause regardless of the rest of the populace.  I believe that the actions of Bin laden under the banner of Al Qaida fall into the latter category.

[Razor X]

when was the last time that two democracies went to war with each other?

Um, 1939.
Adolf Hitler was the democratically elected Chancellor of Germany.
I've got to agree that generally a well run democracy would seem to be the fairest and best system for government.  However there are quite a lot of unfair systems around the world that use the name democracy and aren't very democratic.

Germany can't be said to have been a democracy at that point, in any meaningful sense of the word.  Opposition parties had been outlawed and Hitler was a dictator by 1939.

The displaced Palestinians may not be able to vote there, but they aren't able to vote in most, if not all, of the other countries in the Middle East.

That hardly makes Israel a fair democracy, does it?

[/quote]

I'll take it over any other government in the region.

[StumpyDave]

I'm not disagreeing with you over the benefits of democracy.  If implemented properly it should be the fairest form of government.  However there are clear examples that show it to be open to abuse.  Hitler was elected in 1933.  Although things had changed dramatically by '39, it was as a result of the acts of the democratically elected government.  Like I said, if a nutter gets themselves to the top of the pile all bets are off.

The Israeli version of democracy may be acceptable to you, but it is unacceptable to those that are oppressed.  Once again, right and wrong depend on your personal side of the fence. 

One man/one vote is the ideal.  Unfortunately there are too many people looking out for their own interests for this to be a reality.  Can anything less truly be deemed to be a democracy?

[b.driscoll]

I have to respectfully disagree with MR. ARGYLE......I do not in any way believe that MR. BUSH has in any way harmed our planet any more than say, AL GORE.,,,GLOBAL WARMING is another political football much like GLOBAL COOLING was back in the 1970's As for bin laden, he  for many of HIS twisted reasons attacked  the U.S. and killed thousands of innocent people. I know that there is a HELLFIRE missile with his name on it.

[Robmeister]

for many of HIS twisted reasons attacked  the U.S. and killed thousands of innocent people. I know that there is a HELLFIRE missile with his name on it.

Well said.....

......and lemme just add: the idea that RIGHT and WRONG are relative terms...is COMPLETE AND UTTER BALDERDASH.

 

That means that in a RELATIVE sense....what Bin Laden organized and carried out by his sand-vermin maggot followers on 9/11 could be 'viewed' as RIGHT.  Someone might say, "Well...it was right to them.".....ok I'll grant that....but those slime balls believed it was SO RIGHT...that upon being incinerated upon impact with those buildings, they would be rewarded by "Allah" in paradise with 70 virgins for eternity (or whatever the damn number is). 

Is that the way the universe works?? ?? ?? ??

Sorry folks....while the "YOU-HAVE-YOUR-RIGHT AND WRONG-AND-I-HAVE-MINE" is a nice polite POLITICALLY CORRECT sentiment....it simply doesn't play out in real life.

I don't care what your religion or non-religion is.....if someone walked up to your mum, dad...son or daughter and smashed them in the side of the head with a freakin tire iron....killing them or putting them in a coma.....are you tellin' me that whether or not that was RIGHT or WRONG is FREAKIN RELATIVE ?? ?? ??.....

TOTAL AND UNADULTERATED POPPYCOCK!!!! 

[xnewyawka]

I know that there is a HELLFIRE missile with his name on it.

That's what I'm talkin' about, and thanks for getting back on topic, b and Rob.   

[StumpyDave]

......and lemme just add: the idea that RIGHT and WRONG are relative terms...is COMPLETE AND UTTER BALDERDASH.

You pick an extreme example, but yes.  The scum that carried out those terrorist atrocities (and all others that went before or after them, regardless of the flag they were carried out under) probably believed that they were right.
As an example, Razor believes that Israel's democratic system is right.  I merely point out that there are some that live oppressed under that system that would disagree very strongly.  I would imagine that every nation entering into a war since time began could justify to themselves why they were right.  Historically it would seem that only the eventual winner was correct.