The Surveillance Society

[Pshrynk]

FBI's Net surveillance proposal raises privacy, legal concerns
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9929085-38.html

Transcript: FBI director on surveillance of 'illegal' Internet activity
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-9927552-38.html

FBI turns to broad new wiretap method
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6154457.html

Revealed: FBI Internet Surveillance More Extensive Than Previously Known
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/1/31/revealed_fbi_internet_surveillance_more_extensive

[buddha]

I have no doubt this thread will be pulled in a matter of hours now. Anything even remotely political or controversial is removed to the moderator thread.

It seems that people sometimes become overly sensitive about remarks made about political figures. It is as though the remarks are being made about a friend or family member and people can get downright defensive. I put a post in the jokes section about the (now) loser in the democratic primary that started all kinds of strife. I ended up amending it to make the subject of the joke P. Hilton. So imagine what kinds of muck this thread will rake up. I agree with the illustrious Son Of Krypton that we should be able to voice views about things like this in the forum but since I don't run the show it's not my decision. But imagine if a big story broke on this forum that suddenly got this country headed down a different path that proved to be better than the one we're on. We would all be part of that. And it is said that, with regard to freedom of speech, that the most important speech to protect is the one that the listener finds most objectionable.

[tomgallagher]

There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.

[SonOfKrypton]

Yup, I agree with Tom.

Unfortunately, after Obama gets in office we'll all understand much more clearly what it actually means to lose our rights! 

http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/McCain_I_d_Spy_on_Americans_Secretly_Too

[SonOfKrypton]

There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.

A populace uninformed is a populace enslaved.  I would rather risk starting a "fight" with my fellow good man by informing him as much as I can and letting him inform me of his views as much as he can instead of wussing out for fear of the situations outcome lending credence to some age old saying.  The words "never", "always", and "all" (amongst others) are usually parts of phrases that turn out to be utter bullshit.  I'm not about to believe them because I am told to believe them.

[Pshrynk]

 

[tomgallagher]

There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.

A populace uninformed is a populace enslaved.  I would rather risk starting a "fight" with my fellow good man by informing him as much as I can and letting him inform me of his views as much as he can instead of wussing out for fear of the situations outcome lending credence to some age old saying.  The words "never", "always", and "all" (amongst others) are usually parts of phrases that turn out to be utter bullsh*t.  I'm not about to believe them because I am told to believe them.

The little kernel that hides in there is that you are never going to change anybodies mind and all you start is a fight.

[tomgallagher]

There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.

A populace uninformed is a populace enslaved.  I would rather risk starting a "fight" with my fellow good man by informing him as much as I can and letting him inform me of his views as much as he can instead of wussing out for fear of the situations outcome lending credence to some age old saying.  The words "never", "always", and "all" (amongst others) are usually parts of phrases that turn out to be utter bullsh*t.  I'm not about to believe them because I am told to believe them.

Speaking of bullshit.

[SonOfKrypton]

There is an old old saying that goes" Never start a conversation about politics or religion unless you are looking for a fight". I have seen that proved over and over again.

A populace uninformed is a populace enslaved.  I would rather risk starting a "fight" with my fellow good man by informing him as much as I can and letting him inform me of his views as much as he can instead of wussing out for fear of the situations outcome lending credence to some age old saying.  The words "never", "always", and "all" (amongst others) are usually parts of phrases that turn out to be utter bullsh*t.  I'm not about to believe them because I am told to believe them.

Speaking of bullsh*t.

Awww.....That's so cute!

[tomgallagher]

Yeah, ain't it....

[Marz]

as far a political campaigns, candidates (as they always have) will say what needs to be said in order to secure the office. This is a well crafted art that has alot of intelligent people and a ton of money involved to ensure a positive outcome and acceptance of the candidate by the majority.

After the election the same thing happens just to a different crowd and the promises kept are those that have secured an action through contributions.

You never know what an elected official will do, at best you can formulate a hypothesis of the candidates character.

Ok, enough of that...

As for surveillance, the government should have the same rights as the media and should not enter the realm of a citizens privacy (i.e. Phone calls, emails, mail, ect.) without probable cause. The patriot act has changed this though...

Why would we need the patriot act if pre 9/11 intelligence was ignored anyway? It seems it is not a lack of information that is the issue, it is the overwhelming amount of information to weed through that tends to cause (or fail to prevent) problems these days.

Call me crazy but when it comes to intelligence, gathering seems to be the reason join the FBI or CIA. Nobody wants to be the guy reading through cell phone transcripts and checking surveilence video from a mall in Dubuque.

[wpruitt]

The concept of the Patriot Act is not new.  During the 1st World War, Americans were targeted based on surnames and accents.  We all know of the shameful treatment of Japanese-Americans during World War 2 (based on phenotypes - and yet there was no evidence of any sabotage by them). What is happening today with Americans of Middle Eastern ancestry is no exception - or variance from history.  These things will continue to happen as long as we have an enemy, be they real or perceived.  It is, I am afraid, human nature.  The sins of the few are paid for by the majority of the populace.   

[Sgt. Pate]

Prolly shouldn't have opened that can but for the record, I don't think very highly of either candidate.   

I think that peoples fears will cause them to surrender rights for security and they will not ever get those rights back.  They will likely not get the security they had hoped for either.  It has always happened that way in history.

Surveillance seems to be gaining acceptance as people are conditioned to tolerate it.  I think it's inevitable that we will see much more of it in the future.  But then, I read the last chapter so I know the ending of the story! 

[SonOfKrypton]

I think that peoples fears will cause them to surrender rights for security and they will not ever get those rights back.  They will likely not get the security they had hoped for either.  It has always happened that way in history.

"Those who are willing to sacrifice their basic liberties to assure their security deserve neither." - Ben Franklin

Couldn't agree with ya more Pate.

How's that for an old ass quote whose intrinsic veracity is wholly assumed, Tom?

[JDog]

"Perhaps people who are sick, afraid, demoralized and in debt are far easier to govern than a healthy, perky, sassy populace"
. -quote from Sicko.