Earthlings Documentary

[Robmeister]

I fully support someones decision to become Vegan or anything they wish to do in life.

Yeah....no biggie

....the hypocricy and idiocy of the Straight Edge Vegan movement of the 90's.
These idiots can go F**k themselves

Similar to my "hollywood" scenario....HYPOCRACY.

Definitely a powerful flick there X.....a lot  some of what they say is right on.....cruelty to animals....man's inhumanity to man...racism...sexism...AMEN !   But specieism?  As far as cruelty or the cruel exploitation of animals.....yeah...AMEN!  But to stretch that over to whether or not to eat meat?

Brilliantly assembled horrific images, I must say.  And some of those idiots on there that joked around and got morbid pleasure out of the processes is pretty sick.

However, I noticed that conspicuously absent were any scenes and images of torn-apart body parts of defenseless, innocent little babies being tossed into a bloody bucket like garbage after feeling the excrutiating agony of being torn apart and then sucked out of a girl's uterus by a razor-sharp vacuum cleaner because of a twisted view of "woman's choice."    Seems like that would fall inline with the premise of this film.

The powerful music and dramatic movie-star narration notwithstanding, this just showed me how selective and hypocritical (and ignorant) hollywood can be.

Eat meat....don't eat meat....fine.  

Personal conviction to immediately cease eating meat after viewing something like this?...fine.  

But then--by golly--it follows quite logically and consistantly that one needs to start re-thinking their views on suede shoes, leather jackets, leather work boots, cowboy boots, leather upholstery, footballs, baseballs, razor strops, etc....

I don't for one second buy that--as the film at least attempts to insinuate--I am an immoral, dimwitted, purveyor of specieist evils because I eat meat.   

Besides, it's WAY less complicated because I like leather shoes, boots, jackets, upholstery, and all that.

Just my 2 cents 

[X The Hierophant]

I fully support someones decision to become Vegan or anything they wish to do in life.

Yeah....no biggie

....the hypocricy and idiocy of the Straight Edge Vegan movement of the 90's.
These idiots can go F**k themselves

Similar to my "hollywood" scenario....HYPOCRACY.

Definitely a powerful flick there X.....a lot  some of what they say is right on.....cruelty to animals....man's inhumanity to man...racism...sexism...AMEN !   But specieism?  As far as cruelty or the cruel exploitation of animals.....yeah...AMEN!  But to stretch that over to whether or not to eat meat?

Brilliantly assembled horrific images, I must say.  And some of those idiots on there that joked around and got morbid pleasure out of the processes is pretty sick.

However, I noticed that conspicuously absent were any scenes and images of torn-apart body parts of defenseless, innocent little babies being tossed into a bloody bucket like garbage after feeling the excrutiating agony of being torn apart and then sucked out of a girl's uterus by a razor-sharp vacuum cleaner because of a twisted view of "woman's choice."    Seems like that would fall inline with the premise of this film.

The powerful music and dramatic movie-star narration notwithstanding, this just showed me how selective and hypocritical (and ignorant) hollywood can be.

Eat meat....don't eat meat....fine.  

Personal conviction to immediately cease eating meat after viewing something like this?...fine.  

But then--by golly--it follows quite logically and consistantly that one needs to start re-thinking their views on suede shoes, leather jackets, leather work boots, cowboy boots, leather upholstery, footballs, baseballs, razor strops, etc....

I don't for one second buy that--as the film at least attempts to insinuate--I am an immoral, dimwitted, purveyor of specieist evils because I eat meat.   

Besides, it's WAY less complicated because I like leather shoes, boots, jackets, upholstery, and all that.

Just my 2 cents 

Ok, by the tone of this post it is appearent to me that this is appearently a very sore topic for you. 

Instead of perpetuating a debate, I would just like to re-state the intent of my initial post.  I recently decided to go vegan, and in researching this topic I found a link to a free documentary that I thought was extremely well done.  I assumed that there may be some readers here that would appreciate a link to a free documentary.  That is all I was attempting.  I was not trying to start a debate on animal rights.

A documentary is by its very nature a film giving a viewpoint on a topic.  Some documentaries I agree with, and others I do not; but I always enjoy a good documentary regardless of my agreement, as they spark new ideas and let you see things from another person's/group's perspective.  I thought some readers here would enjoy this one.  I did not anticipate such a visceral reaction.

Again, apologies if I offended.  I simply thought a few people would enjoy a free film.

Replies to some of your comments:

Veganism does include attempting to eliminate animal products such as suede shoes, leather jackets, leather work boots, cowboy boots, leather upholstery, footballs, baseballs, razor strops, etc. - I don't really see how this bothers you however as I have made no posts attempting to convince people to adopt a vegan lifestlyle - I only posted a thread sharing a documentary.

As for your comments on abortion, I do not think that topic falls within the scope of this documentary, but I would be open to watching one that covers this topic.  I do not see how this relates, but do agree with you that this is a prominent moral issue of our age (along with cloning, global warming, genocide, and a host of other things).

[Tyler]

No need to apologize X.  I think some people that aren't to exposed to a wide range of people that are vegetarians or vegans tend to associate them with the extremists that we often see on TV and who also associate themselves with other causes. 

Thanks for posting up the film, I'm sure it will help those that are considering their freedom to choose to be a vegetarian or vegan.

[Robmeister]

].....this is appearently a very sore topic for you.  [/i]

Nahhh....not a "very sore" subject....certain things just bug me and I can be a verbose idiot when it comes to speaking my mind about it.  That's all.

You don't bother me, X...nor the fact that you shared that film.  Have at it!  I just got on my high horse, critical about nuances of the film.  And it probably won't be the last time I offer a java-fueled diarreah of the mouth soap box.

If I were REALLY and SERIOUSLY offended, I would PM you and flame ya.

No doubt that is a POWERFUL film and very well done.

[JDog]

X, I watched the film in its entirety last night , Very well done. There were some things that the film tried to say that I didnt agree with but overrall I found it a very insightful and powerful documentary.

I think strong debate on issues is good for this forum. If everyone agreed with each other about every single issue it would be quite a boring place.

[Alexander215]

I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian [I eat eggs and drink milk] have been since I was 10 years old and I don't regret anything, in the beginning I took cooking classes and talked to a dietitian and every time they see me they're amazed at how healthy I am.

My reason for turning? The environment.

[Robmeister]

As for your comments on abortion, I do not think that topic falls within the scope of this documentary,

You are correct...it doesn't fall within the scope of this documentary....but because of selective portrayal of so-called morality.

Yeah, if a documentary strictly about cruelty to animals is on Animal Planet.....sure, that would not be the place to discuss human abortion.

But if a film is decrying man's inhumanity to man, sexism, racism, specieism, etc...and drawing MORAL conclusions it should be in there.  What's the difference between the images of slavery and Hitler prominently portrayed in this film....murdering millions of Jews because of a twisted mindset......and murdering millions of babies because of a twisted mindset?  Why would one be portrayed and decried, while the other is ignored?  It's ALL FRIGGEN HEINOUS and should rightly ALL be included.

For a person or organization--with a passion and moral conviction for the environment, specieism, or whatever--to chain themselves to a tree in an attempt to save it from being cut down....for someone to spend their life to SAVE THE WHALES or save the dolphins from the tuna nets....puppies from puppy farms....exploitation and cruelty to animals....Decrying Michael Vick and all that (ALL worthy and passionate causes, I might add).... and at the SAME TIME (same documentary or whatever) ignore or be less concerned about the murderous millions of babies being slaughtered....is ridiculous.

See, there I go again.

I think strong debate on issues is good for this forum. If everyone agreed with each other about every single issue it would be quite a boring place.

YEP !!

[JDog]

This film, as poigant and eye opening as it is, chooses to leave out the issue of Abortion and focus solely on Mankinds exploitation of animals. Therein lies the problem. Robmeister said it well

"Selective Portrayal".

[JDog]

You will rarely if at all find an Animals Rights activist who is is also Pro-Life. Work that logic out

[Cameron]

But if a film is decrying man's inhumanity to man, sexism, racism, specieism, etc...and drawing MORAL conclusions it should be in there.  What's the difference between the images of slavery and Hitler prominently portrayed in this film....murdering millions of Jews because of a twisted mindset......and murdering millions of babies because of a twisted mindset?  Why would one be portrayed and decried, while the other is ignored?  It's ALL FRIGGEN HEINOUS and should rightly ALL be included.

For a person or organization--with a passion and moral conviction for the environment, specieism, or whatever--to chain themselves to a tree in an attempt to save it from being cut down....for someone to spend their life to SAVE THE WHALES or save the dolphins from the tuna nets....puppies from puppy farms....exploitation and cruelty to animals....Decrying Michael Vick and all that (ALL worthy and passionate causes, I might add).... and at the SAME TIME (same documentary or whatever) ignore or be less concerned about the murderous millions of babies being slaughtered....is ridiculous.

I agree with Rob, to an extent.

IMO, animal rights are a reasonably strong argument against most abortions even if one does not believe that fetuses are children.  Even if a fetus isn't a child, certainly its worth or value is greater than a chicken.  In other words, those of us against killing animals for food might be similarly against killing fetuses, because at the most basic level, fetuses are animals, too. 

I'm not sure whether I'm pro-life or not, but at this analogy seems pretty persuasive.

(not to get too political or anything )

Perhaps this demonstrates an inconsistency in animal rights proponents who are also pro-choice.  But even if that inconsistency exists, I don't know that we can expect them to portray it in a persuasive piece like this...

With all respect to X (this was a great thing to post), but more generally, I wonder sometimes whether these sorts of "documentaries" are worthwhile.  After all, hollywood can make me (at least for a moment) want to leave my life and go be Rambo, against all rational arguments.  Couldn't they have at least as powerful of an effect on our politics?

[X The Hierophant]

As for your comments on abortion, I do not think that topic falls within the scope of this documentary,

You are correct...it doesn't fall within the scope of this documentary....but because of selective portrayal of so-called morality.

This film, as poigant and eye opening as it is, chooses to leave out the issue of Abortion and focus solely on Mankinds exploitation of animals. Therein lies the problem. Robmeister said it well

You will rarely if at all find an Animals Rights activist who is is also Pro-Life. Work that logic out

Ok, so we are upset that abortion was not covered along with animal rights, and that many animal right activists (supposedly are pro-life).

I am a big fan of documentaries, and one trend I do see is that they usually only cover one major topic at a time.  Is abortion an important issue? - absolutely.  Should they have covered that in this documentary? - Of course not.  I think that if this documentary tried to tackle the issue of abortion (which is an equally complex issue) you would have a 4 hour documentary instead of an 2 hour one.  And why stop there?  I mean if you cover animal rights and abortion what about the death penalty?  So should the documentary be 6 hours to cover all three of these important issues?  Genocide?  Should we add that too?  See the trend here.  To make everyone happy should we have a documentary that lasts several days and attempts to tackle every issue concievable?  This is a bit silly.

And if animal right's activists are supposedly pro-life, should we criticize pro-life activists because they are not typically (supposedly) against the death penalty?  Instead of side-stepping issues, why not just take each issue individually and judge them on thier own merit.  If you don't agree with a documentary, there is nothing wrong with that.  But bringing in a totally unrelated topic to mask your disagreement with the issue presented is illogical.

Again, I would like to add that I never intended to participate in a debate here, but some of these comments are such that I am compelled to respond.

[X The Hierophant]

No need to apologize X.  I think some people that aren't to exposed to a wide range of people that are vegetarians or vegans tend to associate them with the extremists that we often see on TV and who also associate themselves with other causes. 

Thanks for posting up the film, I'm sure it will help those that are considering their freedom to choose to be a vegetarian or vegan.

Thanks man.  I also thought it was a good film and that a free link may be appreciated. 

With all respect to X (this was a great thing to post), but more generally, I wonder sometimes whether these sorts of "documentaries" are worthwhile.  After all, hollywood can make me (at least for a moment) want to leave my life and go be Rambo, against all rational arguments.  Couldn't they have at least as powerful of an effect on our politics?

Point well taken.  There is no doubt that any documentary attempts to sway it's viewers to adopt the viewpoint presented.  One should always keep this in mind.  Excellent point!

On a side-note I need to go check the new Rambo flick this weekend...  I know it will be cheesy and predictable, but I have always been a sucker for the Rambo/Rocky films.

I think strong debate on issues is good for this forum. If everyone agreed with each other about every single issue it would be quite a boring place.

Agreed! 

[Robmeister]

Interestingly relevent article on CNN this morning:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/30/undercover.slaughter.video/index.html

[BaldRob]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but I would like to remind all involved in this discussion to review the Posting Guidelines topic, specifically item 14:

http://www.slybaldguys.com/smf/index.php?topic=723.0

[Cameron]

Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but I would like to remind all involved in this discussion to review the Posting Guidelines topic, specifically item 14:

http://www.slybaldguys.com/smf/index.php?topic=723.0

Thanks for the reminder.  I apologize for my part in the breach