Inputs requested for Arnie's Argumentative Essay - page 1 -

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Inputs requested for Arnie's Argumentative Essay by Arnie on 17 Apr, 2012 11:58
This was the topic that I was assigned. Naturally, I've done lots of research, but my instructor suggested including some field research...

Your input, opinion...and any references are appreciated (especially if they come from a credible website I have not encountered yet).

Thanks!
#1 by tomgallagher on 17 Apr, 2012 12:50
I just ask myself if my wife and children were being held hostage and this one person held the answer that would save them. The answer becomes quite obvious IMO.
#2 by Arnie on 17 Apr, 2012 13:26
Thanks Tom. That is bascially the theme of my thesis. However, a majority of the references I have encountered tap dance around the subject and really don't get messy with how it could benefit others...whether it be your family, a planned attack on a DDG, or a planned attack on American skyscrapers.
#3 by Mikekoz13 on 17 Apr, 2012 13:40
I say "Yes".... "War is Hell"............

Anyone that thinks our guys aren't tortured is fooling themself. Remember Daniel Pearl......

#4 by D.A.L.U.I. on 17 Apr, 2012 13:56
No. Torture is not a reliable means of developing useful information. Other than the development of information enemy combatants should be held in accordance with international conventions. The development of reliable information cannot be made from torture. Extensive questioning, reeducation and other similar non-abusive means although time consuming have a better probablity of providing useful intelligence. Torture may yield some viceral gratification to the person(s) doing the acts--but little else.
#5 by buddha on 17 Apr, 2012 14:24
I voted no.

Part of the reason is an agreement we entered into that is commonly referred to as the Geneva Convention which prohibits torture as well as "outrages upon personal dignity". Any number of arguments can be made in favor of waterboarding or other forms of torture as a means to an end but isn't America supposed to be better than that?

When we abandon our principles do we become any better than the people who beheaded Mr. Pearl? I don't think so.
If we don't live up to our end of the agreement I don't think that we have any claim to the moral high ground when an American gets tortured or terrorized. And as a sidebar I would also like to think that if our enemy knows that we treat our prisoners humanely that they might just make the same allowances for our people.
#6 by tomgallagher on 17 Apr, 2012 14:26
When I was in the Army ('62 to '68) and the danger was imminent is was considered expedient to do whatever had to be done to get results quickly. If the scenario did not qualify as a clear and present danger then the subject could be turned over to S2 (Intelligence) and they could invest two or three weeks or months with the individual.
#7 by Ming the Merciless on 17 Apr, 2012 15:07
If torture didn't work, why not escalate? First, you threaten to kill the subject's wife (I'm not being sexist, but it's usually not the husband) and the children in front of his eyes. After all, you may have to escalate, of course, to achieve your objective (Why does "escalate" sound so familiar? Must have worked back then [ca. 1968]). And, then, again of course, this having failed, you round up the villagers who are neighbors or relatives of the subject and kill them one by one in front of him until you get the information you want. I seem to recall this was used by the Germans in WWII in occupied Poland. Worked then, why not now? No need to fuss over the morality of it all. Results are what count, surely. Right?
#8 by TheSlyBear on 17 Apr, 2012 20:05
The whole morality aspect of it is a huge subject, but that's all rather moot because it's been proven, as saint has already pointed out, that it's ineffective. What good is getting results if the results are sh*t?
#9 by kalbo on 17 Apr, 2012 21:36
My vote is for "yes". If information is needed to gain the upper hand, and the prisoner will not cooperate, torture is an option.
#10 by Arnie on 18 Apr, 2012 10:51
Please note...most useful information (based on my studies to this point) is gained through interrogation before this option even "needs" to be utilized...if ever.

But, if that is what it takes to get even one piece of information that could squash another 9/11, USS Cole, etc...doesn't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one?

We never know how many unsaid victories we have utilizing any means of interrogation...it wouldn't make good positive news and could compromise national security.
#11 by D.A.L.U.I. on 18 Apr, 2012 11:20
Quote from: Arnie on 18 Apr, 2012 10:51
But, if that is what it takes to get even one piece of information that could squash another 9/11, USS Cole, etc...doesn't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one?
No, your supposition is based upon the false idea that torture yields valid and reliable information. It's the overwhelming failure of torture to meet that quality test, valid and reliable, that has been repeatedly proven in the field. Hence, torture satisfies a problematic ego issue on the part of the torturer, but doesn't yield valid data.

#12 by buddha on 18 Apr, 2012 14:47
Quote from: saintc on 18 Apr, 2012 11:20
Quote from: Arnie on 18 Apr, 2012 10:51
But, if that is what it takes to get even one piece of information that could squash another 9/11, USS Cole, etc...doesn't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one?
Hence, torture satisfies a problematic ego issue on the part of the torturer, but doesn't yield valid data.
#13 by tomgallagher on 18 Apr, 2012 18:50
Quote from: Mikekoz13 on 17 Apr, 2012 13:40
I say "Yes".... "War is Hell"............

Anyone that thinks our guys aren't tortured is fooling themself. Remember Daniel Pearl......

Agreed.
#14 by Baldstu on 19 Apr, 2012 11:42
A real can of worms here I favour a pragmatic apporach of respect , my country has respected human life and this in turn has a Karmic effect . Torturing a human being or any being is unskilled