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#15 by FrankyG on 20 Feb, 2009 06:25
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Ummm...guess I never answered the original question...Would I ever serve a foreign country? No, I am an American and I will only serve the United States. As for you you are/were a Citizen of Finland at the time so you by all means were not serving a foreign country. You would of been serving the country that paid your parents salary that fed you, clothed you, gave you a home, and gave you an education. Once again, just my 2 cents.
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#16 by Mikekoz13 on 20 Feb, 2009 07:04
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PB/Koz - I wasn't attempting to set any fires...the poster before me made a comment that he wouldn't swear allegiance to his country so I naturally assumed that would end up making the post get removed.
I know you guys don't like me and the feelings really pretty mutual, but I do post in other stuff...Im a polisci major, not a sports nut...I gravitate to what I gravitate to...just a fact, sorry.
I can't speak for anyone else but I never said I didn't like you. You do however (IMO) fan the political flames on here a good bit and I'm sure that is because of your Polisci background.
That fact that you don't like me is insignificant and I don't care.
I'm a Poli-Life guy and my comments are based on actual real life experiences and situations and I don't "assume" anything. -
#17 by Papa Don on 20 Feb, 2009 07:34
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Thumbs up for Paulie and Koz!!!
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#18 by xnewyawka on 21 Feb, 2009 09:22
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Ummm...guess I never answered the original question...Would I ever serve a foreign country? No, I am an American and I will only serve the United States. As for you you are/were a Citizen of Finland at the time so you by all means were not serving a foreign country. You would of been serving the country that paid your parents salary that fed you, clothed you, gave you a home, and gave you an education. Once again, just my 2 cents.
Well said Franky, and I totally agree.
KollegeKreed, as far as your political views, you can always debate til your blue in the face with your fellow college students, or even a political forum.
You do seem to pop up only for certain topics and then you're gone. Look back to the rules for posting to find all you need as guidelines.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; book smarts have nothing to do with common sense.
Paulie, thanks for keeping it orderly.
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#19 by The Scottish Ambassador on 21 Feb, 2009 09:45
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PB/Koz - I wasn't attempting to set any fires...the poster before me made a comment that he wouldn't swear allegiance to his country so I naturally assumed that would end up making the post get removed.
I know you guys don't like me and the feelings really pretty mutual, but I do post in other stuff...Im a polisci major, not a sports nut...I gravitate to what I gravitate to...just a fact, sorry.
I am extremely disappointed to find these words in our site. PB and Koz have always (in my impression) been fair in there dealings with other members. I certainly dont think they dislike you, however your indication that "the feelings pretty mutual" would ask the question "Why are you here?" If you dont like the members in here then dont come back. -
#20 by tomgallagher on 21 Feb, 2009 11:47
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Hmmm, Scotty said it plain.
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#21 by Blagadan on 20 Apr, 2009 11:43
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Terve ... vai Hej William!!
It's not for any of us to tell you what you should or should not have done; that's entirely for you.
However I would like to point out that, as you said yourself you spent most of your grown-up life in Finland, therefore your adopted country provided you with a safe (and beautiful) place to live, a great peaceful way of life, an excellent healthcare system (most areas although it sucks in Lahti), an excellent education system, an excellent transport network and in addition Finland has some of the finest looking women in Scandanavia
I personally don't think 6 months of national service is asking too much to be honest.
My sons will have to do national service in Finland and although I would prefer if they had a choice (since they don't actually live there) I think it would be a great experience for them anyway.
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#22 by Kratos on 20 Apr, 2009 14:41
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It's one thing to discuss the military and the service of a nation, but it's also another to spit our political preferences back and forth at each other. I believe politics shouldn't even really be discussed here, it's too controversial, too much inference and opinion. It starts arguments, as in previous posts. From my experience on this forum so far I have realized everyone on here is awesome, you guys give warm welcome's, lot's of useful info and humor to boot. Let's all get along here fella's!
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#23 by socctty on 07 May, 2009 20:47
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I am in the US Military, and I have mixed feelings about compulsory service. For someone who is (A) an American and (B) in the military, I'm actually quite anti-war myself. It's certainly necessary at times, though.
I think compulsory service in a society tends to make that society less likely to go to war for silly reasons, or at least makes that society much more skeptical of things like "pre-eminent war". Imagine how hard it would be for politicians to pursue a war if they knew that their constituents had their son's livelihood in their thoughts on voting day. In the US, I believe it's much too easy for us to go to war, because the default position of the voter is to back the head of government's position by deferring to his authority. Couple that with the fact that such a small percentage of our populace serves in the military now. Politicians take advantage of this fact by proposing resolutions to go to war right before voting day, when patriotism is at it's fullest peak, and voters are most-likely to vote for the most pro-war candidates on the ticket. But if those voters knew that their sons, their nephews, or their grandsons could be called at random to serve in such a war, they'd be a lot more skeptical of it's purpose.
On top of all this, I feel that military service could enlighten a lot of lives. It's not only a matter of "respect(ing) an officer", as you put it. It's also the best way I can think of for a young man to see the world, to visit and experience different cultures. Yes, the military environment breeds a certain type of machismo, the type of machismo that is all too often arrogant and ignorant. But for a strong-minded young man, you can experience much more of the world than you otherwise reasonably could. It develops a higher respect for human life in the right kind of person, just as it can develop a disregard for human life in the wrong kind of person. It teaches you discipline - and I don't mean "the ability to obey orders". I am referring to the sort of self-discipline that you see in monks and martial artists. Read Sun-Tzu and "The Art of War" to get an idea of what I am talking about.
In the right sort of man, you can be anti-war and flourish in the military. Despite the aforementioned machismo, the best generally rise to the top in the military, and the best encourage dissent and appropriate, reasonable contrarian thinking. General Colin Powell is a good example (except for that whole speech to the UN as Secretary of State, but he was duped into that, I feel)
That being said, I am, generally speaking, against any government forcing a citizen to do anything that would put that citizen's reasonable morality and livelihood at stake. And as a military member, I don't want someone serving with me that didn't volunteer to be there themselves - their heart isn't in the matter, and you're more likely to have servicemen who are insubordinate.
It seems like you subscribe to the latter position, which is perfectly fine. You also have the caveat of not feeling as if you are a Finnish citizen, even though you are, legally speaking - how do Sweden and Finland treat dual-citizenship?
With all due respect, it seems you've reaped a large amount of the benefits that being a Finnish citizen provides. Sure, you may be able to take them for granted since you may have just as easily taken advantage of similar benefits in Sweden. But I would find it hard to think you have no sense of duty towards Finland. As someone else pointed out, serving Finland isn't serving a "foreign country", as Finland is neither "foreign" to you, since you are a Finnish citizen.
Besides, how likely is it that Finland will be in any sort of war any time soon? Shift from idealism to pragmatism for a second, and consider that.
If being pragmatic doesn't work, I suppose I would suggest that you just go to Sweden, if that's plausible. Sweden is where your heart seems to be, and it's hard to overcome that. I have been to Australia, and absolutely loved the country and it's people, and would gladly live there - but I am an American and my heart lies with Her. So I can sympathize with you, especially since you seem to have been "forcibly" (to use a bit of hyperbole) made a Finnish citizen.
I don't know what the political dynamics are between Sweden and Finland, other than that Sweden seems to be a bit more socialist and Finland is probably more "appreciative" (for lack of a better word) of the virtues of war, because of the history of Russian aggression towards them and the heroic efforts of Finnish forces in the past (look it up, those guys fought on cross-country skis! - badass.)
I personally wouldn't think of you as a coward for leaving Finland, provided you did it an appropriate and sincere manner. Lying to a doctor isn't appropriate. Become a Swedish citizen, renounce your Finnish citizenship in a respectful way, and go to Sweden if you feel you must. But if Sweden has compulsory service as well, don't slink your way out of that, either. You will have then asserted your Swedishness only out of convenience, and not out of sincerity.
P.S. - is it really 6 months they are asking out of you? I hope I have come across as reasonable and considerate of all sides here, but 6 months of service in exchange for Finnish citizenship is nothing. If you are as principled as you seem you be, then challenge those principles and fulfill your legal duty to Finland.
I have served 6 years in the US military, joined as a person who is generally anti-war (but has a burning hatred for al-Qaeda, et al), and remain a person who is generally anti-war (but still has a burning hatred for al-Qaeda, et al). My beliefs have not been compromised. In fact, my personal beliefs have been strengthened not only through my confidence in them but in my experience in challenging them and exposing them to scrutiny. Military service has made me and millions of other men better men.