Sly Bald Guys Forum
Various Non-Bald Discussions => Military/Serviceman => Topic started by: william on July 29, 2008, 01:16:39 PM
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I have grown up in two different countries, Sweden and Finland. Though I never been a Swedish citizen, I have always thought of it as my home, because I'm born there and my native language is Swedish.
As the time I grew up my parents divorced and I moved with my brother, sister and mum to Finland. I became a Finnish citizen because my mum married a Finnish man and by Finnish laws I now became a Finnish citizen. I have never really been proud of being a Finnish citizen even though it is here I spent most of my *grown up time* and my childhood was in Sweden.
Anyways in Finland they got compulsory military service, which I think is wrong. The year of 2006 I started my compulsory military service in Finland but I quited it after 2weeks, everyone asked me why (my friends and family). I told them it was because of my knee injury but that's a lie even though I got a serious knee injury and my military service would probably been procrastinated if I had told the army that I had this knee injury.
So I told the army psychologist that I was strongly against doing military because of religion differences and against war. This is the only way for one to be cut of from the compulsory military service. I would never kill anyone even if that person tried to kill me, I would just try to escape, don't have anything to fight for except myself.
Anyways for people like me that cut themselves of from compulsory military service, must do *civil service* (can't find any English word for that). Well, I thought that's wrong too, I'm not a Finn, no one is gonna take my freedom away even if it's gonna be though. I spent thinking how I was gonna pull this of, well as I really got a serious knee injury i went to the doctors and told them about my knee and they could definitely see from *magnet* X-ray that I had this knee injury.
This time was after I had taken the upper-secondary final examination in Finland. I had moved to Sweden for starting to study at the university. I only studied 3months before it was time for my compulsory military service in Finland.
As I now was living in Sweden but still a Finnish citizen, I wouldn't get any doctor or specialist help from Finland because I was living in Sweden. I thought, well you are right Finland sucks, I don't want help from you guys anyways, I'm gonna prolong this sh*t too till I become a Swedish citizen so I can throw my Finnish passport away. And this is something I'm still waiting for today, to once become a Swedish citizen because that is what I always have been dreaming of even though it's not my home.
Think I have to live one more year in Sweden before I can become a Swedish citizen.
I would never serve a country that I don't feel any connections to. And a guy like me that have nothing to lose, I would never take part in a war, I would rather just flee till I find something to fight for.
I know that a lot of people fight for someone/something just because they don't have something to lose.
What would you have done if you were put into my experience ? Would be cool to get it from your perspectives.
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Everyone has something to lose. If you have the means to move to a different country, to get an education, to change your citizenship, live in a country that provides health care, and to walk safely down the street then you have a lot more than millions of people do today. If you don't value any of that, it still doesn't mean you have nothing to fight for. You might fight to protect someone else, or to uphold a belief. Many times people fight to improve their lives and the lives of people around them. This world is not a utopia. Wars happen to people who don't cause them and you should not depend on others to carry the burden for you.
That point being made, I feel strongly that war is an irrational and terrible thing. I hope I never experience it.
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Respectfully, as a US citizen I must say that if it were not for war, my country would not be the way it is today. We would be a group of British colonies on the east coast and probably never would have expanded west at all.
War throughout human history has been brought on by positive and negative influences. Sometimes it is necessary.
Sometimes it is just mean.
I would fight for my country absolutely. I do not believe in compulsory military service. We are a nation of free will and making our own choices. If you believe in it strongly enough, you will do whatever it takes to see it through. Even if it means fighting.
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In England there use to be compulsory milatary servive, get some in. They ought to bring it back. It teaches you a lot, makes a man out of u, teaches you respect.
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In England there use to be compulsory milatary servive, get some in. They ought to bring it back. It teaches you a lot, makes a man out of u, teaches you respect.
I disagree completely, or I don't think it teaches you respect. Respect for some officers maybe that think they are so cool and just wish there were war.
Nothing respectful in killing a human or wearing a gun.
I threat people like they threat me, no matter of race/age/work/hair etc.
Maybe not what you meant but this is how I see it. I can do anything that you learn in the military service except wearing a gun or imagine I would kill someone. Does that make me less of a man or is that what makes a man out of you ? I don't think so.
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Respect everything and everyone, is what it learns you, even your enemy.If you were atacked how would you defend yourself or country, leave it to others to do the dirty work,
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I am going to place a quote by John Stuart Mill. I have included the whole quote becuase it is a meaningful part but going to highlight the part that I would like you to read...
“But war, in a good cause, is not the greatest evil which a nation can suffer. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice – a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other.”
John Stuart Mill (1806-1873), “The Contest in America.” Harper's New Monthly Magazine, Volume 24, Issue 143, page 683-684. Harper & Bros., New York, April 1862
Please remember there are things worth fighting for...
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As for compulsory service...I am a man that would do the right thing and in that instance your duty was to Finland. I honestly think you should of done your time properly and got out. But that is beside the point. As for compulsory service I am one of the few people in America that believes it should be also here in America.
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Would never serve a foreign nation, but I proudly served in the U.S. ARMY!
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When you take the oath you have to swear allegiance to that country. Not me.
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Compulsory military service for any country is silly - Instead of getting the people that WANT to be in the military, they get people who have no interest and it ends up making the entire operation more dangerous for all.
That said, this post is going to get really political really quick so I don't expect to see it still here tomorrow...
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Compulsory military service for any country is silly - Instead of getting the people that WANT to be in the military, they get people who have no interest and it ends up making the entire operation more dangerous for all.
That said, this post is going to get really political really quick so I don't expect to see it still here tomorrow...
trying to fan fires? it does not have to get political if we are respectful of it. but if it goes awry, you are right, you won't see it.
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Compulsory military service for any country is silly - Instead of getting the people that WANT to be in the military, they get people who have no interest and it ends up making the entire operation more dangerous for all.
That said, this post is going to get really political really quick so I don't expect to see it still here tomorrow...
Funny how you pop in so rarely, fan the political flames, and then bow out not to be seen again until the next time you help spread the fire.
If you don't have something constructive to offer when you do visit, please don't post this kind of nonsense.
Making your point is one thing....... but then your last comment.... just more of the same that we've seen in the past from you.
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PB/Koz - I wasn't attempting to set any fires...the poster before me made a comment that he wouldn't swear allegiance to his country so I naturally assumed that would end up making the post get removed.
I know you guys don't like me and the feelings really pretty mutual, but I do post in other stuff...Im a polisci major, not a sports nut...I gravitate to what I gravitate to...just a fact, sorry.
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dude, i don't dislike you. i have no problem with you personnally. the post before yours was saying that he would not pledge allegiance to another country. that is all. it is hard to know excactly what someone means cause you can't hear them. it has been a problem before. as far as thinking that everything will get pulled, we have rules for a reason. if someone doesn't like the rules, they are welcome to leave. don't want to sound harsh but that is how i feel. this is not a personal thing bro. just the way it is.
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Ummm...guess I never answered the original question...Would I ever serve a foreign country? No, I am an American and I will only serve the United States. As for you you are/were a Citizen of Finland at the time so you by all means were not serving a foreign country. You would of been serving the country that paid your parents salary that fed you, clothed you, gave you a home, and gave you an education. Once again, just my 2 cents.
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PB/Koz - I wasn't attempting to set any fires...the poster before me made a comment that he wouldn't swear allegiance to his country so I naturally assumed that would end up making the post get removed.
I know you guys don't like me and the feelings really pretty mutual, but I do post in other stuff...Im a polisci major, not a sports nut...I gravitate to what I gravitate to...just a fact, sorry.
I can't speak for anyone else but I never said I didn't like you. You do however (IMO) fan the political flames on here a good bit and I'm sure that is because of your Polisci background.
That fact that you don't like me is insignificant and I don't care.
I'm a Poli-Life guy and my comments are based on actual real life experiences and situations and I don't "assume" anything.
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Thumbs up for Paulie and Koz!!!
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Ummm...guess I never answered the original question...Would I ever serve a foreign country? No, I am an American and I will only serve the United States. As for you you are/were a Citizen of Finland at the time so you by all means were not serving a foreign country. You would of been serving the country that paid your parents salary that fed you, clothed you, gave you a home, and gave you an education. Once again, just my 2 cents.
Well said Franky, and I totally agree.
KollegeKreed, as far as your political views, you can always debate til your blue in the face with your fellow college students, or even a political forum.
You do seem to pop up only for certain topics and then you're gone. Look back to the rules for posting to find all you need as guidelines.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; book smarts have nothing to do with common sense.
Paulie, thanks for keeping it orderly. O0
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PB/Koz - I wasn't attempting to set any fires...the poster before me made a comment that he wouldn't swear allegiance to his country so I naturally assumed that would end up making the post get removed.
I know you guys don't like me and the feelings really pretty mutual, but I do post in other stuff...Im a polisci major, not a sports nut...I gravitate to what I gravitate to...just a fact, sorry.
I am extremely disappointed to find these words in our site. PB and Koz have always (in my impression) been fair in there dealings with other members. I certainly dont think they dislike you, however your indication that "the feelings pretty mutual" would ask the question "Why are you here?" If you dont like the members in here then dont come back.
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Hmmm, Scotty said it plain.
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Terve ... vai Hej William!!
It's not for any of us to tell you what you should or should not have done; that's entirely for you.
However I would like to point out that, as you said yourself you spent most of your grown-up life in Finland, therefore your adopted country provided you with a safe (and beautiful) place to live, a great peaceful way of life, an excellent healthcare system (most areas although it sucks in Lahti), an excellent education system, an excellent transport network and in addition Finland has some of the finest looking women in Scandanavia ;)
I personally don't think 6 months of national service is asking too much to be honest.
My sons will have to do national service in Finland and although I would prefer if they had a choice (since they don't actually live there) I think it would be a great experience for them anyway.
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It's one thing to discuss the military and the service of a nation, but it's also another to spit our political preferences back and forth at each other. I believe politics shouldn't even really be discussed here, it's too controversial, too much inference and opinion. It starts arguments, as in previous posts. From my experience on this forum so far I have realized everyone on here is awesome, you guys give warm welcome's, lot's of useful info and humor to boot. Let's all get along here fella's! O0 ;D
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I am in the US Military, and I have mixed feelings about compulsory service. For someone who is (A) an American and (B) in the military, I'm actually quite anti-war myself. It's certainly necessary at times, though.
I think compulsory service in a society tends to make that society less likely to go to war for silly reasons, or at least makes that society much more skeptical of things like "pre-eminent war". Imagine how hard it would be for politicians to pursue a war if they knew that their constituents had their son's livelihood in their thoughts on voting day. In the US, I believe it's much too easy for us to go to war, because the default position of the voter is to back the head of government's position by deferring to his authority. Couple that with the fact that such a small percentage of our populace serves in the military now. Politicians take advantage of this fact by proposing resolutions to go to war right before voting day, when patriotism is at it's fullest peak, and voters are most-likely to vote for the most pro-war candidates on the ticket. But if those voters knew that their sons, their nephews, or their grandsons could be called at random to serve in such a war, they'd be a lot more skeptical of it's purpose.
On top of all this, I feel that military service could enlighten a lot of lives. It's not only a matter of "respect(ing) an officer", as you put it. It's also the best way I can think of for a young man to see the world, to visit and experience different cultures. Yes, the military environment breeds a certain type of machismo, the type of machismo that is all too often arrogant and ignorant. But for a strong-minded young man, you can experience much more of the world than you otherwise reasonably could. It develops a higher respect for human life in the right kind of person, just as it can develop a disregard for human life in the wrong kind of person. It teaches you discipline - and I don't mean "the ability to obey orders". I am referring to the sort of self-discipline that you see in monks and martial artists. Read Sun-Tzu and "The Art of War" to get an idea of what I am talking about.
In the right sort of man, you can be anti-war and flourish in the military. Despite the aforementioned machismo, the best generally rise to the top in the military, and the best encourage dissent and appropriate, reasonable contrarian thinking. General Colin Powell is a good example (except for that whole speech to the UN as Secretary of State, but he was duped into that, I feel)
That being said, I am, generally speaking, against any government forcing a citizen to do anything that would put that citizen's reasonable morality and livelihood at stake. And as a military member, I don't want someone serving with me that didn't volunteer to be there themselves - their heart isn't in the matter, and you're more likely to have servicemen who are insubordinate.
It seems like you subscribe to the latter position, which is perfectly fine. You also have the caveat of not feeling as if you are a Finnish citizen, even though you are, legally speaking - how do Sweden and Finland treat dual-citizenship?
With all due respect, it seems you've reaped a large amount of the benefits that being a Finnish citizen provides. Sure, you may be able to take them for granted since you may have just as easily taken advantage of similar benefits in Sweden. But I would find it hard to think you have no sense of duty towards Finland. As someone else pointed out, serving Finland isn't serving a "foreign country", as Finland is neither "foreign" to you, since you are a Finnish citizen.
Besides, how likely is it that Finland will be in any sort of war any time soon? Shift from idealism to pragmatism for a second, and consider that.
If being pragmatic doesn't work, I suppose I would suggest that you just go to Sweden, if that's plausible. Sweden is where your heart seems to be, and it's hard to overcome that. I have been to Australia, and absolutely loved the country and it's people, and would gladly live there - but I am an American and my heart lies with Her. So I can sympathize with you, especially since you seem to have been "forcibly" (to use a bit of hyperbole) made a Finnish citizen.
I don't know what the political dynamics are between Sweden and Finland, other than that Sweden seems to be a bit more socialist and Finland is probably more "appreciative" (for lack of a better word) of the virtues of war, because of the history of Russian aggression towards them and the heroic efforts of Finnish forces in the past (look it up, those guys fought on cross-country skis! - badass.)
I personally wouldn't think of you as a coward for leaving Finland, provided you did it an appropriate and sincere manner. Lying to a doctor isn't appropriate. Become a Swedish citizen, renounce your Finnish citizenship in a respectful way, and go to Sweden if you feel you must. But if Sweden has compulsory service as well, don't slink your way out of that, either. You will have then asserted your Swedishness only out of convenience, and not out of sincerity.
P.S. - is it really 6 months they are asking out of you? I hope I have come across as reasonable and considerate of all sides here, but 6 months of service in exchange for Finnish citizenship is nothing. If you are as principled as you seem you be, then challenge those principles and fulfill your legal duty to Finland.
I have served 6 years in the US military, joined as a person who is generally anti-war (but has a burning hatred for al-Qaeda, et al), and remain a person who is generally anti-war (but still has a burning hatred for al-Qaeda, et al). My beliefs have not been compromised. In fact, my personal beliefs have been strengthened not only through my confidence in them but in my experience in challenging them and exposing them to scrutiny. Military service has made me and millions of other men better men.