Sly Bald Guys Forum
Various Non-Bald Discussions => General Discussion => Topic started by: AgeTwentyTwoBaldy on February 09, 2012, 09:56:36 PM
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Here is a sample of what the English language used to look like. This poem was written by a man named Caedmon in the year 731. Notice that some of the words survived and are still used today.
"Nu sculon herigean / heofonrices weard,
meotodes meahte / and his modgeþanc,
weorc wuldorfæder, / swa he wundra gehwæs,
... ece drihten, / or onstealde.
He ærest sceop / eorðan bearnum
heofon to hrofe, / halig scyppend;
þa middangeard / moncynnes weard,
ece drihten, / æfter teode
firum foldan, / frea ælmihtig."
Translated into modern English:
"Now we must praise / heaven-kingdom's Guardian
the Measurer's might / and his mind-plans,
the work of the Glory-Father, / when he of wonders of every one,
eternal Lord, / the beginning established.
He first created / for men's sons
heaven as a roof, / holy Creator;
then middle-earth / mankind's Guardian,
eternal Lord, / afterwards made --
for men earth, / Master almighty."
Interesting stuff, IMO.
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imagine speaking that ^)^
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I don't understand either the old or the new rendering of the script.
Yes, language changes over time and thus the ongoing need for translations.
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The reason it is a bit difficult to read even in modern English is because the old English writers didn't worry about word order in sentences. Also, they used a lot of alliteration and rarely said someone's name without a short description of them before or after.
Here's what it would look like if I wrote it out as a paragraph:
"Nu sculon herigean heofonrices weard, meotodes meahte and his modgeþanc, weorc wuldorfæder, swa he wundra gehwæs, ece drihten, or onstealde. He ærest sceop eorðan bearnum heofon to hrofe, halig scyppend; þa middangeard moncynnes weard, ece drihten, æfter teode, firum foldan, frea ælmihtig."
And the modern English:
"Now we must praise heaven-kingdom's Guardian, the Measurer's might and his mind-plans, the work of the Glory-Father, when he of wonders of every one, eternal Lord, the beginning established. He first created for men's sons heaven as a roof, holy Creator; then middle-earth, mankind's Guardian, eternal Lord, afterwards made -- for men earth, Master almighty."
If I were to rewrite this in my own words to make it a bit easier to understand, I would say: “Now we must praise heaven-kingdom’s Guardian, His might and His plans, the work of the Glory-Father, when He who is of wonders of all the people, the eternal Lord, established the beginning. He first created heaven as a roof for the sons of men, holy Creator; then the earth we live on today, He created, mankind’s Guardian and eternal Lord. All things were made by Him, Master almighty.”
It’s a poem about the creation of the world.
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I find current english confusing. When reading older writings like the old testament Bible I understand it better than the modern version. In Russian the order of words is different. Like "Ya tebya looblu" is I you love and lots of other confusing ones. Often times when I am talking I will my words jumbled up or I don't use them in the proper form. Spelling is the worst, so many silent letters and words with many meanings. The thing that gets me about current english is that it isn't phonetic so the words are not spelled like they sound.
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I have always been fascinated by how languages change over time. I do think that text messaging and even the internet are ruining language, especially peoples' abilities to express themselves orally. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.
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I find current english confusing. When reading older writings like the old testament Bible I understand it better than the modern version. In Russian the order of words is different. Like "Ya tebya looblu" is I you love and lots of other confusing ones. Often times when I am talking I will my words jumbled up or I don't use them in the proper form. Spelling is the worst, so many silent letters and words with many meanings. The thing that gets me about current english is that it isn't phonetic so the words are not spelled like they sound.
English draws from so many languages and uses THEIR spellings. The spelling would make sense in the original language context. So for English, guess you have to know the spelling rules for many languages, then be able to identify which language this word comes from, etc. etc. Fun.
My wife works at a museum that traces the history of the written language and has lots of facts about many languages in their displays.
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That's one of the reasons why English is so hard to learn.
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I tell my students that language is merely noise. :/O
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Organized noise, yes. O0
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O0
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That's one of the reasons why English is so hard to learn.
When I go to the States, think my american pals find my British English accent harder to follow, than me understanding them. ;)
Still, always have a good time. :)
Mr Jules (of London)
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I find it sometimes hard to understand the hosts on TV golf matches...it's the Aussie and Irish accents of some of them.
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That's one of the reasons why English is so hard to learn.
When I go to the States, think my american pals find my British English accent harder to follow, than me understanding them. ;)
Still, always have a good time. :)
Mr Jules (of London)
I was talking more about people who are learning English as a second language. One of the reasons they find it so difficult is that English is basically a conglomerate of a bunch of other languages.
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That's one of the reasons why English is so hard to learn.
When I go to the States, think my american pals find my British English accent harder to follow, than me understanding them. ;)
Still, always have a good time. :)
Mr Jules (of London)
I have no idea how people learn English as a foreign language: inconsistent spelling, some many irregularities and several different words all meaning the same thing. It must be hard work....
I was talking more about people who are learning English as a second language. One of the reasons they find it so difficult is that English is basically a conglomerate of a bunch of other languages.
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I wouldn't say English is a conglomeration of other languages, rather since it is the "native language" of at least six different countries (UK, Ireland, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand plus the Commonwealth countries), it has developed differently in each, but retains a strong common thread. One advantage of English is that it does adopt words from other languages, rather than create awkward "native" words. English also has fewer structural rules (think words order) than other languages. So while it may be confusing as heck (when words like though, through and tough look similar but sound very different), in some ways, it's easier to learn than other languages, but it may be harder to master.
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perhaps it would be truer to say that English, although a separate language, has a strongly symbiotic relationship with many other languages. Personally I have always been intrigued by etymology, especially when it encompasses similarities in many languages, think of how many languages use 'ananas' or a derivative of it to mean pineapple... check it out.
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Yep, Slyfive is right on again...and the piña belongs to the Bromeliad family. And the Portuguese took them from Brazil to Europe and the Brits and Spanish spread them all over the world.
O:O
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I agree with npsbg about the words. I can be speaking Russian to friends but when an English word comes up that there is no good Russian word for, I have to use the English form. Something that gets me is all the strange sounds of the letters. In Russian there is 31 letters and 3 symbols and the only time they sound like one another is "B" and "V" sometimes sound similar. Maybe it is how people pronounce words too like most people say Chree, Chruck, Chrew, Chrubble instead of saying it tree, truck, true, trouble, etc..
I like comparing similarities in languages too, like the term for library in most other languages is a form of word mentioning 'bible' like bibliotecka. I was at the auto parts store and they have everything in spanish and english, seeing the similarities in some words are cool. But others that you think you would get based on the whole Latin thing like ovidae are sheep, ovary, oval, then in Russian there is ovidium zapozha which means have a great day. The whole 'ovid' thing there doesn't always transfer from language to language
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Yep, Slyfive is right on again...and the piña belongs to the Bromeliad family. And the Portuguese took them from Brazil to Europe and the Brits and Spanish spread them all over the world.
O:O
Watch out or I'll start thinking I'm clever! :/O
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I agree with npsbg about the words. I can be speaking Russian to friends but when an English word comes up that there is no good Russian word for, I have to use the English form. Something that gets me is all the strange sounds of the letters. In Russian there is 31 letters and 3 symbols and the only time they sound like one another is "B" and "V" sometimes sound similar. Maybe it is how people pronounce words too like most people say Chree, Chruck, Chrew, Chrubble instead of saying it tree, truck, true, trouble, etc..
I like comparing similarities in languages too, like the term for library in most other languages is a form of word mentioning 'bible' like bibliotecka. I was at the auto parts store and they have everything in spanish and english, seeing the similarities in some words are cool. But others that you think you would get based on the whole Latin thing like ovidae are sheep, ovary, oval, then in Russian there is ovidium zapozha which means have a great day. The whole 'ovid' thing there doesn't always transfer from language to language
I'm struggling to understand your post.
In Russian there is 31 letters and 3 symbols and the only time they sound like one another is "B" and "V" sometimes sound similar.
To whom? Could you give an example? I can't imagine Russian speakers confusing "B" and "V."
Maybe it is how people pronounce words too like most people say Chree, Chruck, Chrew, Chrubble instead of saying it tree, truck, true, trouble, etc..
"chr" for "tr" (and "jr" for "r") is not standard/normative English pronunciation. It's common in certain regions -- Appalachia, for example. But nationwide I wouldn't say "most people" at all.
the term for library in most other languages is a form of word mentioning 'bible'
Most other Indo-European languages, maybe? (Kirjasto, toshokan, etc.)
But others that you think you would get based on the whole Latin thing like ovidae are sheep, ovary, oval, then in Russian there is ovidium zapozha which means have a great day. The whole 'ovid' thing there doesn't always transfer from language to language
??? Russian for sheep is "ovets," right?
ovidium zapozha
???
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One advantage of English is that it does adopt words from other languages, rather than create awkward "native" words.
especially when it encompasses similarities in many languages, think of how many languages use 'ananas' or a derivative of it to mean pineapple... check it out.
So why did English form "pineapple" instead of borrowing "ananas"? Is the word "pineapple" awkward?
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According to Wikipedia...The word Ananas is derived from the Guarani name for the pineapple, via Portuguese. In many languages, pineapple is called "ananas". (When I worked in Paraguay I found that Guarani was also an official language along with Spanish. Interesting, no?)
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In Russian there is 31 letters and 3 symbols and the only time they sound like one another is "B" and "V" sometimes sound similar.
To whom? Could you give an example? I can't imagine Russian speakers confusing "B" and "V."
I think he meant that the Cyrillic letter "B" is pronounced more or less similar to the English letter "V", hence confusing the native English speaker.
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So why did English form "pineapple" instead of borrowing "ananas"? Is the word "pineapple" awkward?
The first English speakers to see the fruit called it a "pineapple" because it looked like a large pine cone (which were originally called pine apples).
In my original statement, I meant to draw the contrast with some other languages (countries) where there are strict rules (think French) about adopting foreign words.
:)
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In Russian there is 31 letters and 3 symbols and the only time they sound like one another is "B" and "V" sometimes sound similar.
To whom? Could you give an example? I can't imagine Russian speakers confusing "B" and "V."
I think he meant that the Cyrillic letter "B" is pronounced more or less similar to the English letter "V", hence confusing the native English speaker.
Sorry if there was any confusion, I was still half asleep when I wrote it this morning.
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I was just rereading my post and noticed I said 3 symbols, it is 2 symbols (myakiznak & tvyordiznak). Russian for sheep is ovtsa.
In Spanish, isn't the word for library also biblioteca? I guess it is all more European based though when it comes to that, I don't know any of the translations for library in southeast asian languages or african languages.
The whole 'tr/chr' thing is what I notice locally and also on tv when I watch it. Seems like movies and everything, the typical US English speakers say it that way. I cannot think of a time when I heard someone on a movie or television show pronounce the distinct 'tr' sound.
Or looking at the English alphabet, there are useless letters like q which needs to almost always be used with a u, c never really has a purpose other than to help with others, g often sounds like j. Silent letters and everything else just make reading and writing in English can be a pain because of the lack of phonetics.
I brought up ovidiumza pozha because I was talking about how some words you can see similarities but it just doesn't fit. And I gave the false translation because I was messaging someone. The definition is see you later, not have a good day, sorry for confusion.
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I brought up ovidiumza pozha because I was talking about how some words you can see similarities but it just doesn't fit. And I gave the false translation because I was messaging someone. The definition is see you later, not have a good day, sorry for confusion.
Holy crap, that was supposed to be увидимся позже? A better transliteration would be uvidimsia pozzhe. I seriously wasn't getting that from your initial post.
Another note: Yes, word-for-word back into into English, uvidimsia pozzhe is "see you later." But be aware that if you're saying goodbye in Russian you have many other better options. uvidimsia pozzhe does tend to create the impression that you and the other person will indeed be seeing each other later, possibly that day. Are you talking to mostly Russian teenagers? (My Russian's a bit dated these days so take what I say with a grain of salt.) I could see them choosing uvidimsia pozzhe because the construction is similar to English and German and such and it's fashionable to use something calquey instead of more native things like do vstrechi, do svidaniia, poka, nu poka, davai, and so forth.
Edited to add: I'm leaving town for the weekend. Won't be back on the internet until Sunday night.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29v_adW9dn0 Here's a guy with flawless pronunciation performing the hymn.
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Beautifully read I have to say
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Intriguing , somewhere i have professional recording of Chaucers Tales sounds ver similar
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Similar, sure, but Chaucer wrote in Middle English. You may have also heard of a tale called Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. That is also written in Middle English.