Sly Bald Guys Forum
Discussions About Being Bald => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chavster on October 10, 2011, 01:21:14 PM
-
I've been speaking to a friend of mine, and there's a phrase neither of us sure we understand, at least from an American's point of view (generally speaking obviously).
Oprah Winfrey is African American. Barack Obama is African American (I think). Whoopi Goldberg is African American. Condolotsateetha Rice is African American.
What does 'African American' actually mean, de facto rather than de jure? I can look this up on Wikipedia, but I'm interested in the de facto, and Wikipedia will probably only give me the de jure.
-
p.s. i'll tell you why I'm asking, because I'm going to bed shortly. I cant get the internet to work properly tonight, I'm not feeling well, and there's nothing on tv.
A friend of mine works for the government (UK rather than US) and he just got back from a 3-day trip to Washington DC. He said that on two occasions, he was referred to as 'African American', in spite of the fact that he's neither African or American. He said he pointed these two facts out to the people concerned, but they said they wouldnt know what else to refer to him as, because 'thats what he is...African American'. He said he once again pointed out that he isnt African (his family is from Oman), that he isnt American (he's British). One of them retorted that 'everyone with your skin colour is African American'. He said he felt quite upset and insulted by that (he's quite proudly British, and his heritage is Asian)
How can someone who is neither African or American be referred to African American? Was he just talking to two particularly stupid people? Is African American the only term used for those of us with a darker skin colour?
I'm not trying to start a debate, I'm just trying to understand what the phrase means in reality.
-
Well, US citizens of color are referred to a African Americans as they are Americans, and can (mostly) trace their heritage to Africa at some point in their lineage.
However, it seems to have become the "term du jour" as other terms such as black, negro, and others that I'm too polite to use have fallen out of favor. And "person of color" seems too pretentious and awkward.
So I'm sure that their was no intent to insult your friend -- it's just that there doesn't seem to be another currently acceptable term.
I know we have some bald brethren who are "of color" ... it'd be interesting to hear your take on the whole thing.
-
Just to add to Sly Bear's explanation, they adopted what had long before been used for American's of different national backgrounds, Italian-American, Irish-American, etc. It's just lingo. And as with all lingo, it morphs into a general description--that's what your friend experienced nothing more.
-
Yes, the term is used to denote American of African ancestry. In the same vein, an Asian American is an American of Asian ancestry, although I know many people from the Indian subcontinent that bristle at being called Asian American because the term in their view means east Asian.
I would hope the people your friend dealt with weren't intending to insult him, although the way they put it sounds rather clumsy.
-
I'm German-Lithuanian American, but that's not included on any census forms, loan application, or any type of enrollment forms I've completed.
I'm considering legal action.
-
I'm German-Lithuanian American
Only two ethnicities? That qualifies you as almost pure-blooded. I count at least four in my lineage (Irish, English, German, and Italian)!
-
I find the term a little confusing, because (for example) if Freddie Mercury were still alive and if he were to move to the US and become a US citizen, I doubt he'd be called 'African American' by anyone, even though he was born and raised in Africa (Zanzibar, to be precise), but he was as white as a sheet, in spite of having Indian parents. Same for Pik Botha and FW de Klerk (South African politicians), and millions of others, yet if they became US citizens, they would in fact be African Americans. So I'm assuming 'African American' = the B word (and I'm not using the B word in case its not politically correct in America, the way it is here. Nobody here would call themselves African British, for example. The B word is the word used by everyone, whether they're B or W)
As for Indians (Calcutta rather than Apache), its the same here, they dont like being referred to as Asians, because Asian generally refers to people from the far east. Also, many native Israelis feel insulted when they're called Asians, even though thats what they are. Same said for people in Cyprus. The people of Malta refer to themselves as European, whereas geographically, Malta is a part of Africa.
As for my friend, I dont think he meant he was insulted by being referred to as African or American as such. I got the impression he was more insulted by the ignorance of the people he was talking to. They didnt seem to understand that people of colour (another term I hate, because we all have a colour) could be referred to as anything other than African American, which I find kind of dumb, because in my own living memory, I can think of lots of terms which have been used. Some respectful, others less so...
And as far as the Italian/Irish/German thing... I also dont understand Italian American (etc). Genetically speaking, its possible to differentiate between an Italian and, for example, a Norwegian. Italian is a defined race, as is Irish / German / Norwegian etc. Yet 'American' isnt a race, its just a nationality made up of many other races.
Anyway, I guess I'll just add this to my 'one more thing that doesnt make any sense to me' list :D
I'm going back to bed now. I only got up for a pee :o
-
I'm German-Lithuanian American
Only two ethnicities? That qualifies you as almost pure-blooded. I count at least four in my lineage (Irish, English, German, and Italian)!
Some of us actually are pure-blooded. ;)
-
I'm German-Lithuanian American
Only two ethnicities? That qualifies you as almost pure-blooded. I count at least four in my lineage (Irish, English, German, and Italian)!
Some of us actually are pure-blooded. ;)
Sorry, it's pretty obvious that someone in your lineage messed around with the Vikings when they took their Irish "vacation!" ;)
-
I'm German-Lithuanian American
Only two ethnicities? That qualifies you as almost pure-blooded. I count at least four in my lineage (Irish, English, German, and Italian)!
Some of us actually are pure-blooded. ;)
Sorry, it's pretty obvious that someone in your lineage messed around with the Vikings when they took their Irish "vacation!" ;)
ok.
-
I'm German-Lithuanian American
Only two ethnicities? That qualifies you as almost pure-blooded. I count at least four in my lineage (Irish, English, German, and Italian)!
Some of us actually are pure-blooded. ;)
Indeed! 100% pure French Canadian on both sides going back as far as I've traced.
-
I'm German-Lithuanian American
Only two ethnicities? That qualifies you as almost pure-blooded. I count at least four in my lineage (Irish, English, German, and Italian)!
Some of us actually are pure-blooded. ;)
Sorry, it's pretty obvious that someone in your lineage messed around with the Vikings when they took their Irish "vacation!" ;)
But once type was established there were enough consistency for several successive generations so that meets the definition of "pure breeding."; ;)
-
But once type was established there were enough consistency for several successive generations so that meets the definition of "pure breeding."; ;)
That sounds like canine breeders talk ;D. Then there are the comments of the late Winston Churchill in Vol. I of The History of the English-Speaking People. We lost that series to Katrina, but I seem to remember a comment in there about mongrels. :D
-
I'm German-Lithuanian American
Only two ethnicities? That qualifies you as almost pure-blooded. I count at least four in my lineage (Irish, English, German, and Italian)!
Some of us actually are pure-blooded. ;)
Sorry, it's pretty obvious that someone in your lineage messed around with the Vikings when they took their Irish "vacation!" ;)
I think saint is referring to your red Van Dyke. The Vikings or Norsemen is exactly where we Irish get our distinctive red hair.
-
I refer to them as Black. I am never referred to as European-American but White.
-
I refer to them as Black. I am never referred to as European-American but White.
Ditto. If you're a citizen of the U.S. you should just be classified as American (unless you're dual citizen or something). No prefix.
Wouldn't you find it ignorant and maybe offensive if you were dark-skinned and born in Haiti, for example, and called African-American? How about if you were light-skinned and born in South Africa and referred to as European-American? What if you had Asian ancestry and were born right here in the U.S. and still called Asian-American? I'm all for people identifying with their ancestry, but I think racial qualifiers attached to the term American is uncalled for.
Racial semantics is a tricky subject. ???
-
As for my friend, I dont think he meant he was insulted by being referred to as African or American as such. I got the impression he was more insulted by the ignorance of the people he was talking to. They didnt seem to understand that people of colour (another term I hate, because we all have a colour) could be referred to as anything other than African American, which I find kind of dumb, because in my own living memory, I can think of lots of terms which have been used. Some respectful, others less so...
This is where political correctness leads us. Everyone is afraid of using the wrong term. And while some terms that have fallen from favor were clearly offensive, there are others that have been discontinued and I don't think anyone has a clue as to why. ???
And while it wouldn't have helped with your friend's example, I do wish that we on this side of the pond would just get into the habit of referring to ourselves as Americans and let it go at that. All these modifiers and hyphens serve no purpose but to divide people into different factions.
-
[ I'm all for people identifying with their ancestry, but I think racial qualifiers attached to the term American is uncalled for.
Racial semantics is a tricky subject. ???
Looks like we both posted the same thought at the same time. Great minds and all that .... ;)
-
When I hear the term African American to me it just means dark colored mutt.I had a teacher that was a proud Sudanese-American. Most of the 'real' African people I talk to, they refer to themselves as people from their country (Sudan, South Africa, Guinea, etc.). I just call them black and refer to myself as white, I prefer not to use caucasian because to me I think of the term in the way that caucasians are from the Caucas mountains which are mostly darker skinned anyway.
As for me, I am an American mutt. I am mostly German with some Scottish, Welsh, and flat out Brittish. My dad was 3/4 German, 1/4 Scottish and my mom was 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 Brittish, and 1/2 German. The funny thing is when folks see me they think I am more from Ukraine/eastern Europe.
-
. I am mostly German with some Scottish, Welsh, and flat out Brittish. My dad was 3/4 German, 1/4 Scottish and my mom was 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 Brittish, and 1/2 German.
Since Chavster is still apparently counting sheep, I'll just jump in and point out that "British" isn't a race any more than "American" is. British is an all-encompassing term for anyone of English, Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish origin, though most nationalists in Northern Ireland will object to the term. So I'm assuming your mom was probably 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 English and 1/2 German? ;)
-
. I am mostly German with some Scottish, Welsh, and flat out Brittish. My dad was 3/4 German, 1/4 Scottish and my mom was 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 Brittish, and 1/2 German.
Since Chavster is still apparently counting sheep, I'll just jump in and point out that "British" isn't a race any more than "American" is. British is an all-encompassing term for anyone of English, Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish origin, though most nationalists in Northern Ireland will object to the term. So I'm assuming your mom was probably 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 English and 1/2 German? ;)
That is what I meant, I always get the term "British" and "English" mixed up
-
. I am mostly German with some Scottish, Welsh, and flat out Brittish. My dad was 3/4 German, 1/4 Scottish and my mom was 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 Brittish, and 1/2 German.
Since Chavster is still apparently counting sheep, I'll just jump in and point out that "British" isn't a race any more than "American" is. British is an all-encompassing term for anyone of English, Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish origin, though most nationalists in Northern Ireland will object to the term. So I'm assuming your mom was probably 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 English and 1/2 German? ;)
That is what I meant, I always get the term "British" and "English" mixed up
It is confusing. England=English, Scotland=Scottish, Wales=Welsh. The whole island is Britain and all 3 can call themselves British if they like. Now Northern Ireland is a different deal. I personally feel that there is two islands, one named Ireland and one named Britain and the folks on the one island should be called British and the folks from the other island should be called Irish but maybe that's too simple.
-
It's a good observation about racial semantics being tricky. This thread got started because of someone being referred to by a term that really is a racial generalization. That's really the problem - we can't seem to find a good way of describing people of different skin colors.
-
. I am mostly German with some Scottish, Welsh, and flat out Brittish. My dad was 3/4 German, 1/4 Scottish and my mom was 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 Brittish, and 1/2 German.
Since Chavster is still apparently counting sheep, I'll just jump in and point out that "British" isn't a race any more than "American" is. British is an all-encompassing term for anyone of English, Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish origin, though most nationalists in Northern Ireland will object to the term. So I'm assuming your mom was probably 1/4 Welsh, 1/4 English and 1/2 German? ;)
That is what I meant, I always get the term "British" and "English" mixed up
It is confusing. England=English, Scotland=Scottish, Wales=Welsh. The whole island is Britain and all 3 can call themselves British if they like. Now Northern Ireland is a different deal. I personally feel that there is two islands, one named Ireland and one named Britain and the folks on the one island should be called British and the folks from the other island should be called Irish but maybe that's too simple.
Not too simple, but not accurate :) Just like Mike ^^, you're confusing race and nationality :D
Politically, the people of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands are British.
Racially and genetically, the people of Northern Ireland are Irish, in the same way that people in Cork or Dublin are Irish.
As X Man mentioned, 'British' isnt a race. English is a race, Scottish is a race, Irish is a race, and Welsh is a race, but British is an umbrella term for citizens of the UK, and that includes Northern Ireland. From a UK perspective, anyone born and raised in Belfast (for example) is referred to as an Irishman, but when it comes to matters of state, the same person is British.
There is also another native race within the UK, which is Cornish. Welsh and Cornish are the two most medieval races within the UK.
No country that has been 'produced' from an amalgamation of other countries or territories or races can be described as having its own race. Places like the UK, US, the former Yugoslavia, Russia (etc) dont have a defined race, and the same is said for countries which have experienced mass immigration, such as Australia, New Zealand, etc.
There are pockets of 'pureness' within each of these countries, obviously, such as French Canadian, however the term 'French Canadian' in reality is applied to Canadian people who speak French as their native language, rather than to their race, because pure 'French Canadians' are in fact racially and genetically French. The islands of St Pierre and Miquelon (just off the coast of Canada) are also purely French, in spite of living off the coast of North America. Many people living in a town in Argentina (I cant remember the name of the town) are purely Welsh, as their bloodline has never been mixed with either the Spanish population of Argentina or the native population.
The thing to remember is that race isnt defined by politics, its defined by DNA, which is why anyone with an Irish bloodline is Irish rather than Mongolian-Irish or Irish-Brazillian.
-
Many people living in a town in Argentina (I cant remember the name of the town) are purely Welsh, as their bloodline has never been mixed with either the Spanish population of Argentina or the native population.
Puerto Madryn.
-
As X Man mentioned, 'British' isnt a race. English is a race, Scottish is a race, Irish is a race, and Welsh is a race, but British is an umbrella term for citizens of the UK, and that includes Northern Ireland.
In American English, these are ethnicities, not races.
-
In American English, these are ethnicities, not races.
Perhaps, but America is just one country out of many, and just about everywhere else, they're races, as defined by their DNA. America is also a country that uses the term African American, which is also totally inaccurate in the overwhelming number of cases.
-
So a slight way to relate over here in the states are the Native Americans. They are all divided into various tribes. Most of the tribes have different languages and cultures (some nomadic, some stationary) and they even vary within their skeletal strucures.
-
They're different races. There will be some similarities between some of them (ie, two tribes living close together are more than likely to be the same race), whereas one tribe based in the midwest is likely to be a different race from a tribe based on the west coast.
As I said, race is defined by a person's genes, not by which passport they happen to carry at any given moment.
From my viewpoint the '-American' thing has two uses. In the case of black people, its used to be politically correct. In the case of others (ie Irish-American or Italian-American) its a nod to the fact that they're equally proud of being a US citizen as they are being Italian. I can understand that, but I still have trouble understanding African American. Partially because American isnt a race, and partially because there are so many races within Africa that to describe someone as 'African American' does an injustice to a whole lot of people.
-
When "African-American" emerged, true, it was patterned after Italian-American, Irish-American, and the like. This was undoubtedly intentional. The point I believe that has been lost is that those self-identifying as African-American use "Africa" (a geographic category) because they are unable to point to a more specific ethnicity, due to the entire slavery experience (I'm not being flippant).
Now that it's largely become synonymous with Black, yes, there are all sorts of inaccuracies and baffling scenarios, as have been mentioned.
-
In American English, these are ethnicities, not races.
Perhaps, but America is just one country out of many, and just about everywhere else, they're races, as defined by their DNA. America is also a country that uses the term African American, which is also totally inaccurate in the overwhelming number of cases.
There are around 40 American countries. Most speak Spanish and then English, Portuguese, Dutch, German, French. Most were originally slave colonies so therefore you'll find people of African decent in all American countries, not only the US.
-
In American English, these are ethnicities, not races.
Perhaps, but America is just one country out of many, and just about everywhere else, they're races, as defined by their DNA. America is also a country that uses the term African American, which is also totally inaccurate in the overwhelming number of cases.
There are around 40 American countries. Most speak Spanish and then English, Portuguese, Dutch, German, French. Most were originally slave colonies so therefore you'll find people of African decent in all American countries, not only the US.
So what's that got to do with the price of potatoes? ???
-
So what's that got to do with the price of potatoes?
I wondered too :D
I think maybe what he's saying is that to a US citizen, the term 'American' tends to apply only to the US, whereas in reality, 'American' applies to the two pieces of land stretching from Alaska to Argentina :)
But maybe he doesnt mean that at all :o
-
Hiya, Jerzy Boy...just enlightening you about how thing are. I'm glad that you appreciate it.
:*)) :*)) :*))
-
Hiya, Jerzy Boy...just enlightening you about how thing are. I'm glad that you appreciate it.
:*)) :*)) :*))
What does the fact that there are people of African descent in the third world banana republics have to do with the current discussion?
-
So what's that got to do with the price of potatoes?
I wondered too :D
I think maybe what he's saying is that to a US citizen, the term 'American' tends to apply only to the US, whereas in reality, 'American' applies to the two pieces of land stretching from Alaska to Argentina :)
But maybe he doesnt mean that at all :o
I've often wondered that myself. Why, all over the world we are referred to as Americans when in fact, the term could be used for everyone of us in North, Central and South America. We are not the only Americans. Very confusing.
-
Yes but to some Americans (US citizens), there ARE no other people on the planet. To some Americans, going to Hawaii means going overseas, and not just because its a chain of islands. So we all have our dim and stoopid people :D
When I lived in Nebraska, some people thought it was an 'exciting day out' to drive across the border into Iowa... the girl I shared an apartment with, she thought it was exotic and 'foreign', the way some people would think going to Tahiti is exotic ::)
Anyway, what would people call US citizens other than 'Americans'? United Statesers? USAers? :o
Although most people around the world do have another name for y'all, and oddly enough, it also begins with the letter A, but its not very complimentary :D :D
:P
-
p.s. going back to the African American thing, I've come to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) thats its political correctness, pure and simple.
As for Italian American or Irish American (etc), whats wrong with just being American? Most Irish Americans, I'd like to bet, have never even been to Ireland, and the same goes for Italian/German/Icelandic/Somali-Americans.
Its great to be proud of our heritage, but the whole Italian American thing (etc) blows my mind because having an Italian grandma and a liking for baked zito or whatever its called doesnt make someone Italian, or even vaguely Italian. And as far as I know, this is peculiar to the US. I've never heard of anyone describing themselves as (for example) Australian-Belgian, or Brazillian-Taiwanese, or Swedish-Egyptian.
Get over yourselves and be proud of your heritage AND proud to be an American, but dont cloud them with each other :D
:@`
*hugs to all, Im going back to bed*
-
p.s. going back to the African American thing, I've come to the conclusion (rightly or wrongly) thats its political correctness, pure and simple.
As for Italian American or Irish American (etc), whats wrong with just being American? Most Irish Americans, I'd like to bet, have never even been to Ireland, and the same goes for Italian/German/Icelandic/Somali-Americans.
Its great to be proud of our heritage, but the whole Italian American thing (etc) blows my mind because having an Italian grandma and a liking for baked zito or whatever its called doesnt make someone Italian, or even vaguely Italian. And as far as I know, this is peculiar to the US. I've never heard of anyone describing themselves as (for example) Australian-Belgian, or Brazillian-Taiwanese, or Swedish-Egyptian.
Get over yourselves and be proud of your heritage AND proud to be an American, but dont cloud them with each other :D
:@`
*hugs to all, Im going back to bed*
Very well stated, I couldn't agree more! O0
-
I've never heard of anyone describing themselves as (for example) Australian-Belgian, or Brazillian-Taiwanese, or Swedish-Egyptian.
I've heard "African-Canadian" on CBC. Don't know how common that usage is in the wild.
Wasn't French-Canadian mentioned earlier in this thread?
Swiss-German
Swiss-French
Swiss-Italian
Swedish-Finns
Japanese Peruvians
Baltic Russians
Peranakans
-
Yes but to some Americans (US citizens), there ARE no other people on the planet. To some Americans, going to Hawaii means going overseas, and not just because its a chain of islands. So we all have our dim and stoopid people :D
When I lived in Nebraska, some people thought it was an 'exciting day out' to drive across the border into Iowa... the girl I shared an apartment with, she thought it was exotic and 'foreign', the way some people would think going to Tahiti is exotic ::)
Anyway, what would people call US citizens other than 'Americans'? United Statesers? USAers? :o
Although most people around the world do have another name for y'all, and oddly enough, it also begins with the letter A, but its not very complimentary :D :D
:P
By jove I think he's got a little bit of lime in his Guinness.
-
Although most people around the world do have another name for y'all, and oddly enough, it also begins with the letter A, but its not very complimentary :D :D:P
I'll take It takes one to know one for $200 please Alex.