Sly Bald Guys Forum
Discussions About Being Bald => To be or not be...Bald => Topic started by: buddha on January 08, 2010, 09:49:32 AM
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First, a little history. Back in the 90s something called The Men's Movement became somewhat of a household word. People like Robert Bly, Thomas Moore, and Asa Baber(Playboy magazine) were some of the movers and shakers that got things going in public. This whole thing was about men reclaiming their birthright of manhood. Because it became clear to the early leaders that men were no longer "allowed" access to the things that made them "a man among men".
For example, when I was young my mother told me a story about her father, my grandfather. He is a man that, 20 years after his death, I still love and admire. For me he will always be a man among men. When my mother was young, perhaps 10 years old, she and my aunt ran home to tell my grandfather that a man down at the corner candy store tried to get them to go back to his house with them in a way that frightened them both. My grandfather walked down the street with them and they pointed the man out. My grandfather told them to go home and wait for him there. When he returned a little while later he showed signs of having been victorious in battle, bruised knuckles, etc., but assured my mom and her sister that this man would not trouble them again.
My grandfather was always spoken of by his family as an exceedingly kind man and that is my memory of him, as well. But, given the proper circumstances my grandfather would unleash intense ferocity on anyone who threatened anything that he held dear. Even as an old man I knew that my grandfather would do whatever he had to do to keep me safe even if it cost him his life. I was always confident when I was with him.
But this is not about my grandfather. This is about the men's movement that I referred to earlier. People, especially some women, have a skewed opinion of the men's movement and men's retreats. There is a prevailing attitude about a group of men going on a retreat that conjures the notion of a bunch of misguided oafs painting their faces and taking on Indian names and speaking in strange tongues for a weekend. And this notion is conveyed to men as a way of making them feel silly and childish about wanting to be men in the way that it meant to be a man in the days of my grandfather and before.
I have been a participant in men's retreats as well as having been on the staff of one of the groups that facilitates these retreats that operates out of Evanston, IL. For about 5 years as a staff member I was priviledged to see men who knew that they had strayed off the path attend these retreats in an attempt to regain their direction. Some of these men told us of an experience that sounded like having been bullied away from their true calling by their wives, girlfriends, or even their mothers. There is no one that can say that a weekend retreat can totally change a man's life and allow him to lead the life of a warrior, with honor and respect, but I saw many times men who arrived at a retreat a shrunken, beaten man and who left standing straight and vowing to get himself back on his rightful path.
Why all this on a forum for men who shave their heads? Because it goddamn infuriates me to read about men who have been bullied by a rapidly feminizing society into feeling like they have to ask permission from the women in their lives to something so personal as shaving their own head. This is why in another thread in this section I quoted Brad Pitt's character from the movie "Fight Club", specifically the line where he says "we're a generation of men raised by women". Well meaning brothers come into this forum and I read their questions about getting their wives to let them shave or "how do I sell this to the wife?" and I become defensive for these men. I make comments about taking back your balls and when I write this it probably gets read as being a mean-spirited comment. My intention is the opposite. One of the ideas that I took away from my connection with the men's movement is that manhood is bestowed upon the man by right of birth. No one can take it away but a man can surrender it. The nice thing is that whenever he wants to take it back it will only respond to his call. Not that of his wife.
I want to be clear, I am not condemning women. I do not and will never take the side of any man who abuses his wife.
BUT A MAN CLAIMING HIS MANHOOD IS NOT ABUSE!
No matter what anyone says.
This is why I get so angry when men come in here and explain to the members of this forum that they are trying to figure out how to float this sly thing with the wife or the gf. And my anger sometimes comes out at the man but it is not hateful. Because I have been in this same boat as they are right now and I was content to stay there until I realized that the boat had a hole in it and was taking water and my only hope was rescue. And while I had wise men to show me the way I had to rescue myself to prove that I really wanted it. And it took some fighting and some anger and some tears and some screaming and the only thing I can say for sure about the whole experience is that I am f^@king glad that I was there.
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hey buddha: bravo... bravo.... O0 i thoroughly enjoyed that post. i love the story of your grandfather. he definitely is a true man. thanks 4 sharing that story. O0
WARHAWK O0
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While I agree with many of budda's points on the changes in society, I think that much of the so called "feminization" of culture is probably related to the influence of co-dependency in our lives. Whether or not co-dependency is a problem to be solved is controversial but many of the traits that characterize the condition certainly seem to have relevance to a discussion of how decisions are made by men in their relations with the significant other as well as, and in particular, with male pattern baldness. I think that head shaving is best for me, but for reasons I can't frankly understand, some "legitimately" prefer the balding look :/O. However, if a guy won't shave his head because he has the following traits, it's probably feminization or co-dependency.
I found these signs of co-dependency in Wikipedia & I suggest that they may be characterized as part of the feminization phenom:
A balding guy may resist shaving if he has the following feelings (note: these aren't all the co-dependency patterns in the syndrome.)
Denial Patterns:
* I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
* I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel.
* I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others.
Low Self Esteem Patterns:
* I have difficulty making decisions.
* I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough."
* I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
* I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
* I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own.
* I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.
Compliance Patterns:
* I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
* I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
* I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
* I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
* I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
If a balding guy has these behavior pattern, he may be seen as submitting to the feminization of society if it prevents him from shaving his head in response to mpb or causes him to resist any thoughts of growing a beard. From my point of view these aren't healthy patterns in any relationship, particularly with women, because they cause a guy to be in effect a possession of the woman and not a partner. To that extent surely it feminizes that guy.
But it's just my opinion.
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Another thing that I would add to the list of compliance patterns given by saintc is:
It's not worth arguing about.
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I agree, "It's not worth arguing about" would clearly be a Compliance pattern i
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@buddha O0
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Absolutely spot on Buddha!
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Man Buddha.... what an outstanding post!
I have never been a member of the men's movement because I am an old fashioned type guy in many ways. I look at my wife, and women in general, as my equal in many respects. But I am no fool and I know that there are some things that my wife is just not physically capable of. I, like your Grandfather, would take matters into my own hands if any of my Family were threatened in any way.
I recently had a talk with my wife's very old Uncle about having a "talk" with his piece of sh*t son-in-law. The son -in-law had mentally abused the Uncle's daughter to the point of attempted suicide. This "talk" would have basically been non-verbal and very physical.
Though he didn't accept my offer, he shook my hand, hugged me, and thanked me for being a "real" man.
I come from a long line of very tough, no bullshit, Polish men. I vowed many years ago to carry that torch proudly and pass the lessons on to my boys.
Does this mean I'm not compassionate and kind? Hell no..... part of being that real man is knowing when compassion MUST rule the day.
I call the whole thing "The Pussification of America"............. and it is led by the "Nintendo Generation"........
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Great post Buddha O0
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Thanks for your support, boys. Much appreciated.
I think part of what may have happened in my original post is that I lost sight of my original intent which was to buffer my comments to men who come to this forum looking for a way to sneak going sly past the women in their lives. The point is that a man doesn't need to ask permission for something like this and trying to "sell it" or do it in a way that will save them having to explain themselves turns out to be the doorway to continued problems in the future.
Something like this is much akin to women changing their hair color or getting a perm. Maybe the man in her life doesn't like the idea but, simply put, women's stand is "it's not his hair". In that they are absolutely correct. So parity or equality is what's at stake here and a lot of women who are not sly fans will read this thread and reactby conveying the idea that men worrying about this shows just how immature men can be.
I do not advocate a man just taking action on all things without discussion or input from a significant other in a case where his conduct would have an effect on others. An example of this would be a man who might withdraw $10K from the family bank account and going to Vegas for a week with friends knowing that his conduct will affect his family's ability to pay their mortgage. Clearly discussion is called for in this case.
So when I write that a man should just reach up and take that jar where his wife, etc keeps his balls and take them back I am, in effect, cheering for equality for men in all things. Because this practice of asking permission for something so personal is merely a link in the chain of men not being equal to women but being subservient to them.
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Nice post O0
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Ya know what I hate about American society? Men are so afraid of being misunderstood that they're afraid to show non-sexual affection to other guys. I grew up in a Middle Eastern culture (in this country). The guys weren't afraid to hold hands or even kiss each other on the cheeks. I miss that SO much, but don't want to be misunderstood. Plus, guys aren't supposed to show any emotions, either.
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Bubbadave3 I know exactly what you're talking about. For a large portion of my career I worked for Kuwaiti's and my boss was Syrian. He was absolutely the smartest, best negotiator I have ever worked with. Over the years we became close, and I learned that the physical expression of friendship in the Middle Eastern fashion is a great tradition.
I'm not sure that the Puritan based American culture is amenable to it. The French and Italians are closer.
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Cultures are very different. I have several close guy friends that when we see each other we give each other hugs.
My dad was never very good at showing emotion. He's in his early 60's now and I've seen him show more emotion the last 5 years than in my entire life. Must be age or something.
I'm very good at keeping my emotions in check; however, there are times that one simply must cry. Pure and simple. Oddly enough for me it's not the expected times. For example, I didn't cry when my children were born. I rarely cry at funerals and never have at a wedding. I cried Christmas morning when my mom called to tell me Merry Christmas. It's the little things I guess. :)
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Cultures are very different.
Tell me about it. Moving to the South was a real trip, all the kissing between men & women, & women and women at social occasions--even when they really might not care for each other ;D. And the "are you related to" beginning to seemingly every conversation, and the number of times the people wind up being related, even if only by a great granduncle or aunt. I really find it amusing now, in fact I have to "buffer" the people in the company from up in upstate NY, they just want to start talking business from the minute they walk in!
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Being born and raised in the South, we are a big "huggy" bunch of folks. That much is for sure! lol
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I grew up in a Middle Eastern culture (in this country). The guys weren't afraid to hold hands or even kiss each other on the cheeks. I miss that SO much, but don't want to be misunderstood.
I am eternally grateful that is not the custom here. I really don't like people touching me except under certain situations. ^-^ ^-^ I can't stand being around people who have to put their hand your shoulder or on your arm when they're talking to you.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Ya know what I hate about American society? Men are so afraid of being misunderstood that they're afraid to show non-sexual affection to other guys. I grew up in a Middle Eastern culture (in this country). The guys weren't afraid to hold hands or even kiss each other on the cheeks. I miss that SO much, but don't want to be misunderstood. Plus, guys aren't supposed to show any emotions, either.
This was one of the things that we dealt with on some of the retreats I was privileged to be part of. Men came into these weekends so uptight about being thought to be gay and that, believe or not, is the main reason that men in this country find the practice of hugging so objectionable.
Being a straight man the act of hugging was always difficult for me until I understood what was behind my resistance. I never even hugged my father until I was in my late 30s and he didn't hug me after a certain age, probably about 10. Nowadays it is different for me and that has been a tremendous relief. As men I think we have been trained to always present what is considered a manly front by those who I would call masculine fundamentalists. That would be those folks who think that all men should strive to be John Wayne in every facet of their lives.
I have a very good friend who is a Muslim from Turkey. He was genuinely surprised the first time that a hug between us was called for that I actively engaged. At that point I had already put in a lot of time in the movement and had gotten over my paranoia about hugging guys out in public.....
where somebody might see.
As he explained to me, in cultures like his it is actually unusual to see 2 men who are friends shake hands or greet each other in a way that does not involve hugging.
The lesson that I have learned over the years is how men are deprived of deep friendships with other men by this taboo. When that knowledge hit me I got over my objections to hugs in short order.
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We're huggers in our house. It can be overwhelming to the uninitiated on their first visit.
We laughed like crazy at my Son's girlfriend the first time she came around about 6 months ago. She was in a line of huggers and i was last in line. She just looked overwhelmed. As I hugged her I simply said, "Sorry... it's just our way of making you feel like part of the Family"..... to which she dropped a big smile.
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The lesson that I have learned over the years is how men are deprived of deep friendships with other men by this taboo. When that knowledge hit me I got over my objections to hugs in short order.
It's not possible to have a deep friendship that doesn't involve hugging? :-\
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Thank you... Truth be told, I've never heard of this movement, but it rings true in my heart. Thanx you...
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I am what you might call the touchy-feely type
I like to hug and be hugged and if the guy has and is ok with it I also like to rub beards
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The lesson that I have learned over the years is how men are deprived of deep friendships with other men by this taboo. When that knowledge hit me I got over my objections to hugs in short order.
It's not possible to have a deep friendship that doesn't involve hugging? :-\
It all depends what each person's definition of a deep friendship is. I think that something has to be shared besides the fact that 2 guys work in the same place or enjoy talking politics or sports or like to exchange ideas about what types of computer software they run. My opinion.
I guess once I became a believer in hugging my friends I began to take some real comfort in it. And masculinity is not diminished by the practice. A fact.
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Well, I live in South Africa. Here, in some of the african cultures it is common to see 2 men walking along holding hands. This is a sign of comerade-ship and of Safety...
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And masculinity is not diminished by the practice. A fact.
Was anybody arguing otherwise? ???
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Budda, thank you for putting this out there! I totally agree. The younger men in our society have been raised in a very feminist culture. Many young men have not had fathers in their homes as role models. Most TV programs show men as wimps.
Colin Powell wrote a list of 18 Lessons from a very successful leader. Men should read this. Though his list is aimed at leaders, we can all learn something from it. I especially like #6 to support Budda's post:
http://www.littleafrica.com/career/powell.html (http://www.littleafrica.com/career/powell.html)
Lesson 6: "You don’t know what you can get away with until you try." You know the expression "it’s easier to get forgiveness than permission?" Well it’s true. Good leaders don’t wait for official blessing to try things out. They’re prudent, not reckless. But they also realize a fact of life in most organizations: If you ask enough people for permission, you’ll inevitably come up against someone who believes his job is to say "no". So the moral is, don’t ask.
I don't see this as a license to pursue excess. A man essentially has to regulate himself. The problem starts when he transfers some of that self-control to another person. He needlessly limits his own abilities by allowing in doubt to eat away at his confidence. He still has to think through on his decisions, anticipate the possible consequences, but if there is a possibility someone might not approve that doesn't put a halt to everything. It's just another factor to evaluate; perhaps irritating some third party is necessary. Mothers-in-law come to mind as good examples.
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Challengeme, thats powerful stuff... Thanx for the link...
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And masculinity is not diminished by the practice. A fact.
Was anybody arguing otherwise? ???
Maybe not arguing but, and maybe I'm stereotyping in this case, in my experience when I have encountered a man who has a strong objection to physical contact between a male friend and himself it has been based on a fear of what society might think of this. Will they think that there is "something going on here"? How does that reflect on me? And from the looks of your avatar, Razor, it doesn't look to me as though you have a lot to fear from anyone.
There are exceptions to my stereotype rule of course. One year at the Chicago Men's Conference I had spoken in one of the workshops and what I had said brought me into contact with a guy when the workshop was over. He walked up and hugged me and there was something about it, when coupled with some things he said, that severely creeped me out. I avoided this dude the rest of the day. I was really troubled by the encounter, partly by what his side of it was and partly by my reaction. I thought about it a lot that night and the next day when I went back I saw him right off the bat and he saw me. He made a beeline toward me and at the point where he was just about to latch onto me I put out my hand and physically stopped him. I told him right off that I was troubled by what had happened the day before and he proceeds to start to read me the riot act. That, right there, told me I was dead on in my evaluation of his motives. I got into this guy's face and told him in no uncertain terms, so a 6 year old could have understood, exactly what my response would be were he to approach me again. Later one of the conference leaders told me that he wished he had the "balls" to say to this troll what I had said. He told me that the guy had been following him around all weekend and been in almost constant physical contact to the point where this "leader" was actually hiding out so as not to be seen or touched by this guy.
But this all goes back to the fact that a man has to make decisions about this kind of thing based on what he wants, not on what somebody else expects or what society dictates. Kinda the reason we're all here. So I'm not saying that you have to run around hugging all your friends if that kind of thing is something that you find objectionable. But what a men's movement guy would tell you is that I challenge you to look at the level of objection that you have and find out what is behind it.
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Buddha-
I think it's kind of ironic that the "leader" you were talking about was "hiding"...... yet he was a leader at a men's movement where at least some of the main points were to stand up and be a man!
He should have done just what you did...... be a man and stand up to the problem. Sounds to me like this leader could have used a little lesson on being a real man himself.
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And masculinity is not diminished by the practice. A fact.
Was anybody arguing otherwise? ???
Maybe not arguing but, and maybe I'm stereotyping in this case, in my experience when I have encountered a man who has a strong objection to physical contact between a male friend and himself it has been based on a fear of what society might think of this. Will they think that there is "something going on here"? How does that reflect on me? And from the looks of your avatar, Razor, it doesn't look to me as though you have a lot to fear from anyone.
There are exceptions to my stereotype rule of course. One year at the Chicago Men's Conference I had spoken in one of the workshops and what I had said brought me into contact with a guy when the workshop was over. He walked up and hugged me and there was something about it, when coupled with some things he said, that severely creeped me out. I avoided this dude the rest of the day. I was really troubled by the encounter, partly by what his side of it was and partly by my reaction. I thought about it a lot that night and the next day when I went back I saw him right off the bat and he saw me. He made a beeline toward me and at the point where he was just about to latch onto me I put out my hand and physically stopped him. I told him right off that I was troubled by what had happened the day before and he proceeds to start to read me the riot act. That, right there, told me I was dead on in my evaluation of his motives. I got into this guy's face and told him in no uncertain terms, so a 6 year old could have understood, exactly what my response would be were he to approach me again. Later one of the conference leaders told me that he wished he had the "balls" to say to this troll what I had said. He told me that the guy had been following him around all weekend and been in almost constant physical contact to the point where this "leader" was actually hiding out so as not to be seen or touched by this guy.
But this all goes back to the fact that a man has to make decisions about this kind of thing based on what he wants, not on what somebody else expects or what society dictates. Kinda the reason we're all here. So I'm not saying that you have to run around hugging all your friends if that kind of thing is something that you find objectionable. But what a men's movement guy would tell you is that I challenge you to look at the level of objection that you have and find out what is behind it.
Buddha, I always make a point of asking before hugging someone that I don't know for the first time, (and subsequently if there's any question in my mind). I don't want to be guilty of inadvertently violating someone's boundaries. I lived through clergy sexual abuse as a teen, and have had to go through years of counseling to get over it, so I'm particularly careful about making sure that I don't violate someone's boundaries or inadvertently send the wrong message. Sounds like this guy needs to learn some of that.
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And masculinity is not diminished by the practice. A fact.
Was anybody arguing otherwise? ???
Maybe not arguing but, and maybe I'm stereotyping in this case, in my experience when I have encountered a man who has a strong objection to physical contact between a male friend and himself it has been based on a fear of what society might think of this. Will they think that there is "something going on here"? How does that reflect on me? And from the looks of your avatar, Razor, it doesn't look to me as though you have a lot to fear from anyone.
There are exceptions to my stereotype rule of course. One year at the Chicago Men's Conference I had spoken in one of the workshops and what I had said brought me into contact with a guy when the workshop was over. He walked up and hugged me and there was something about it, when coupled with some things he said, that severely creeped me out. I avoided this dude the rest of the day. I was really troubled by the encounter, partly by what his side of it was and partly by my reaction. I thought about it a lot that night and the next day when I went back I saw him right off the bat and he saw me. He made a beeline toward me and at the point where he was just about to latch onto me I put out my hand and physically stopped him. I told him right off that I was troubled by what had happened the day before and he proceeds to start to read me the riot act. That, right there, told me I was dead on in my evaluation of his motives. I got into this guy's face and told him in no uncertain terms, so a 6 year old could have understood, exactly what my response would be were he to approach me again. Later one of the conference leaders told me that he wished he had the "balls" to say to this troll what I had said. He told me that the guy had been following him around all weekend and been in almost constant physical contact to the point where this "leader" was actually hiding out so as not to be seen or touched by this guy.
But this all goes back to the fact that a man has to make decisions about this kind of thing based on what he wants, not on what somebody else expects or what society dictates. Kinda the reason we're all here. So I'm not saying that you have to run around hugging all your friends if that kind of thing is something that you find objectionable. But what a men's movement guy would tell you is that I challenge you to look at the level of objection that you have and find out what is behind it.
Buddha, I always make a point of asking before hugging someone that I don't know for the first time, (and subsequently if there's any question in my mind). I don't want to be guilty of inadvertently violating someone's boundaries. I lived through clergy sexual abuse as a teen, and have had to go through years of counseling to get over it, so I'm particularly careful about making sure that I don't violate someone's boundaries or inadvertently send the wrong message. Sounds like this guy needs to learn some of that.
That is an excellent point and, I have to confess, something that I had not considered. In particular the clergy point. So I stand corrected with regard to boundaries.
And to the men who have posted objections to the hugging issue on this thread I post my apology. I did not take into account the fact that there may be a real obstacle to that practice for a lot of us. I, too, have some childhood things that came into play in the early stages but I had patient people who were willing to take the time to help me. For those who read the section of my post that dealt with the guy at the Men's Conference.....that whole thing played out the way it did because of a childhood occurrence. The difference in his case was that I had not only learned how to draw boundaries but also how to enforce them. And I gave (and give) myself permission to continue that practice.
And as far as this thread goes my original intent was to lead the cheers for men who were on the fence about going sly because of someone else's opinion and I have been more guilty than anyone else in this thread getting kinda off track. My original point was that a man does not need permission to shave his head any more than I needed permission to back that a$$hole off at the conference.
Maybe it's good that we went down this road after all.