Need some relationship advice

[slymyke]

Mike,

If you think this is something that will bother you down the road, then now is the time to back out.  If you like everything else about her and this is the ONE thing that bothers you.... maybe you should reconsider.  Humans make mistakes... and is one mistake more or less forgiveness-worthy than another? 

[Lynchy]

Sounds tricky!

Personally I think that the past is the past. Hopefully you can come to terms with it because you seem really keen on her.

[benlen]

I don't know if it is just me being me or if others can see my point of view on this. I am one of the few people left it seems that believes that sex should wait until after marriage. Well, I heard through the grape vine that she has lost her virginity a few years back. Is it bad that it changes me view of her? I know she hasn't gone out sleeping around but it has still altered the way I see her

Are you insinuating that you are a virgin?

If so, it sounds like it could be religious reasoning, but also your own insecurities. I wouldn't want to date a woman who was much more sexually experienced than myself, not because she "slept around," but because the pressure on me being good in bed would be that much greater!

If this is a religious belief though, don't punish the girl with that!

There's nothing wrong with sleeping safely with multiple partners in your life until the day you happen to find someone you want to settle down with––and most people who profess the whole "don't sleep together until marriage thing" are generally hypocrites who also decry the use of birth control.

[Razor X]

and most people who profess the whole "don't sleep together until marriage thing" are generally hypocrites who also decry the use of birth control.

And how do you arrive at that conclusion?  

[Mike]

It's not just because of religion but personal reasons. I am still a virgin and I plan to be one until I get married. Just like I waited until I was of legal age to go out drinking, it seemed more special that way.
 After the advice given here and in messages, I figure I'll go on another date or two and if she mentions anything about it then I'll take it from there. I know she has had sex because her mother and father told me that they walked in on her one night.

[slybeard]

Mike, I respect your values and honesty.  If you didn't see it, I snet you a PM.

[benlen]

and most people who profess the whole "don't sleep together until marriage thing" are generally hypocrites who also decry the use of birth control.

And how do you arrive at that conclusion?  

Haha, just like anyone does––a mixture of education and personal experience!

I don't want to distract this thread from its purpose (Mike's values) which we've now learned come from personal convictions and not inherited religious beliefs––something that, as an atheist, I especially respect.

I can state that of the myriad friends and acquaintences I've had in my life, I've only met ONE person (also a man) who happened to feel that sex should wait until after marriage and that belief was not connected to larger religious beliefs.

Personally, I don't think it's the best thing to do, because I think, as long as someone engages in safe, consensual sex, there's nothing wrong with it. You have fun, learn how to be better at sex, etc, until the day that you meet "the one."

"The one" might be the first person you have sex with (if you're lucky!). Or it might be the third, fourth, etc. Who knows?

But that's a thing that is a "to each his own." Like everything this site advocates, personal choice is key.

The critical part is not judging this woman for her own personal choices, unless Mike thinks it will negatively impact his respect/compatibility with this woman.

The first thing I would do in such a situation would be to say, "don't sweat it," it's normal. It is unlikely as Mike ages that he's going to meet someone who holds his same beliefs (is a virgin waiting until marriage) and also doesn't carry the baggage of some extreme religious beliefs as well.

But if it really is an issue for Mike, it's a can of worms waiting to open that should be left alone before it progresses.


To answer Razor's question:


Very public scandals have erupted from conservative public figures who supposedly hold the belief that sex should wait until after marriage. A prime example is Sarah Palin's family. Supposedly their religious beliefs preclude sex before marriage and they have campaigned politically on the issue. Yet two of her children have had sex out of wedlock AND become pregnant out of wedlock, something their beliefs forbid. And some have got divorced.

I don't want to get too political here, as that is not what this thread is about, so I'll leave it at that.

[Oracle]

Mike, you are not alone in thinking sex should wait until marriage but, most people do not marry at a very young age these days.  It was much easier to retain your virginity when you expected to marry soon after leaving high school.  Now, when so many of us delay marriage to establish our careers or to mature a little more, its less likely that even if we retained our virginity, that our prospective spouse would still be a virgin.  I fell in love with my wife the first time I met her though it would take nine years before we would start dating.  During those nine years, she had a failed relationship resulting in a child whom I adopted when we finally married when we married fourteen years after first meeting.

Obviously, my wife was not a virgin when married but she has been the best thing that has ever happened to me.  Technically, I was not a virgin when we married but only because we had sex once we had decided we were going to marry and share our lives together.  And yes, I was the original 40 year old virgin!  

Mike, don't get hung up on what this young lady might have done in her past, we all have pasts.  If you have feelings for her you owe it to yourself to explore any possibilities to be happy now and in the future.

Jim

[slymyke]

I figure I'll go on another date or two and if she mentions anything about it then I'll take it from there.

If it is really important to you.. don't wait for her to bring it up.   Either bring it up yourself or steer the conversation heavily in that direction.  It has to get out on the table so you can talk it over together.  If something is bothering you from the beginning, it will not go away.  (This could be about sex or anything else).  If she has the same religious convictions you do, then she will want to explain her actions and be able to move past this... forgiven and forgotten about...    That is the purpose of dating... to get to know each other and figure if you are compatible for the long haul.

[Razor X]

To answer Razor's question:


Very public scandals have erupted from conservative public figures who supposedly hold the belief that sex should wait until after marriage. A prime example is Sarah Palin's family. Supposedly their religious beliefs preclude sex before marriage and they have campaigned politically on the issue. Yet two of her children have had sex out of wedlock AND become pregnant out of wedlock, something their beliefs forbid. And some have got divorced.

I don't want to get too political here, as that is not what this thread is about, so I'll leave it at that.

I'm afraid I can't think of a single example of a conservative public figure who was both (a) on the record as being against premarital sex and (b) involved in a sex scandal.   Sarah Palin has not been involved in a sex scandal and that fact that her daughter had a child out of wedlock is not an example of a sex scandal. Her daughter is not a public figure and the fact that she may not have lived up to the values that you presume she was taught doesn't make it one. 

Your original comment, that I took exception to was:


"and most people who profess the whole "don't sleep together until marriage thing" are generally hypocrites who also decry the use of birth control."

It doesn't necessarily follow that people who are against premarital sex are also against birth control.  And holding either or both positions doesn't make them hypcocrites, unless they say one thing and do another.  You have no way of knowing whether "most people" are sincere in their beliefs or not.   You are simply making assumptions based on your own biases.

"The critical part is not judging this woman for her own personal choices, unless Mike thinks it will negatively impact his respect/compatibility with this woman."

Interesting how you've advised Mike not to judge this young woman for her choices, yet you've done precisely that with respect to those who have a different viewpoint than you do.  Now, that's hypocrisy.

[slymyke]

Razor, I agree. 

I think it is doesn't make since to point out the mistakes of Sarah Palin's daughter and pin them on Sarah.  Even if Sarah were the one who made that mistake instead of her daughter, it doesn't make her a hypocrite in my opinion... it just means she made a mistake.   For her to be a hypocrite, she would have to be repeatedly doing one thing and saying another....


I forgot to mention before that I am shocked that this girl's parents discussed her "virginity status" with anyone.. especially a potential boyfriend.  That is not their place at all, and highly irregular. 

[benlen]

I'm afraid I can't think of a single example of a conservative public figure who was both (a) on the record as being against premarital sex and (b) involved in a sex scandal.   

Sarah Palin has not been involved in a sex scandal and that fact that her daughter had a child out of wedlock is not an example of a sex scandal. Her daughter is not a public figure...

A dubious source perhaps, but there is likelihood that Sarah Palin has indeed been involved in a sex scandal of her own:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2037211/Sarah-Palin-took-cocaine-affairs-Glen-Rice-husbands-business-partner.html


When Sarah Palin became a public figure her family became public figures by extension.

Sarah Palin campaigned on her family being a prime example of her values...and then...

And you only need to look a couple years back to see her daughter AND boyfriend plastered over all kinds of tabloids. They are now public figures, ignominious or otherwise.

It doesn't necessarily follow that people who are against premarital sex are also against birth control.

The reasoning behind religious "wait until after marriage" is just that. You don't use birth control because sex isn't meant to be a pleasurable act, but an act of copulation, of reproduction.

In that logic it is totally reasonable to assume a religious link if you happen to run into someone who opposes sex before marriage––especially if you live in America where we have a very vocal, Christian religious community that purports these values.

Interesting how you've advised Mike not to judge this young woman for her choices, yet you've done precisely that with respect to those who have a different viewpoint than you do.  Now, that's hypocrisy.

Hahaha! If we play the "you're a hypocrite!" game eventually everyone is going to be hypocritical about something!

I can see Razor, however, why you would point to my statement as being hypocritical, so let me fill in the background on how I made that argument:


I've reached my point from the synthesis and absorption of the news and education I've received.

Sarah Palin's daughter IS a public figure.

Conservative public figures have been involved in sex or hypocrisy scandals.

Some preachers have come out blasting homosexuality, only for it to be discovered that they are secretly gay themselves.

Other religious figures have preached the gospel and secretly molested children.

These crimes or scandals aren't worse than those committed by those who have no religion.


What makes these people hypocrites, however, is that they so publicly exhibit these values, and then it is discovered that they do otherwise.

And in that way, it's not hypocritical for someone like me to demand them to own up to their chosen values––if you choose not to have sex before marriage, do so and stick to it.

Don't publicly state that's what you're about, secretly do otherwise, and then only own up to it later after you've been caught.

If you choose to take your decided high road, the onus is on you to live by it––especially if you make it part of your public identity.

And if you hold such rigid viewpoints, and profess them onto others, attempt to convert others, expect to be judged by those same others who do not hold such viewpoints when you are acting contrary to your values.

Expect to be called out about it if you say one thing and do another, especially when you supposedly subscribe to a belief in a higher power.


^^To be as clear as I can, this is where my statement equating "no sex before marriage beliefs" and "hypocrites" comes from––it is a hypothesis arrived at by my education (college, graduate studies) as well as reading the news.

And as to my hypocrisy, well, my statement perhaps could have been better phrased, but I stand by the fact that MOST people I've encountered in the news and in my personal life who happen to hold such beliefs also happen to not follow them, making their actions hypocritical. I didn't just throw the statement out there.

And why this tickles me is because this discussion feels as if it has become a judgment of this woman solely because she has had multiple relationships that involved sexual intercourse, but does not appear to subscribe to any values that preclude such normal, healthy activities.

[Mikekoz13]

Sorry Ben.... you have too many assumptions, in my opinion, for your arguments to be valid. Also, your opinions are based on your life experiences liiving in a major City. Get away from the cities and attitudes change.

I laughed out loud when I read this, that you wrote:


When Sarah Palin became a public figure her family became public figures by extension.

With this line of thinking, if my Father were a criminal I would be a criminal. Laughable at best.

I will say that once all of the Palins went on TV they became public figures.

[tomgallagher]

Strange thread.

[slymyke]

And why this tickles me is because this discussion feels as if it has become a judgment of this woman solely because she has had multiple relationships that involved sexual intercourse, but does not appear to subscribe to any values that preclude such normal, healthy activities.

Hopefully you are talking about a different girl than the one this thread is about...  

Here is what was originally said..."Well, I heard through the grape vine that she has lost her virginity a few years back. Is it bad that it changes me view of her? I know she hasn't gone out sleeping around but it has still altered the way I see her."

***If this is who you were referring to above, she has gone from not sleeping around to being with multiple partners...

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